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#61 Slightly Live

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 04:17 PM

With descoping back, Im holding out this is just a reskin of the zoom in the BR/DMR had.

 

Especially since it looks like there is no accuracy loss from hipfiring. I think I can hold some optimism for a whole day until the reveal.



#62 DualX

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 04:20 PM

Reskinned from Call of Duty Advanced Warfare?



#63 Crucified

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 04:22 PM

Yeah I get how conservative you feel about classic Halo but I don't think the game will be trash. I see the gameplay and I hope they impress when we play the beta. I told Ivan the other night about how H4 tried to copy COD and didn't like it. Like I said unfortanutly this is were the industry is going. The market looks at what people want. Not how old things use to be.

#64 DualX

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 04:24 PM

Dude. Halo 4 didn't work. Look at my post on the last page linking to the downfall of Halo 4. That is not what people want. The stuff they keep pushing has zero justification.



#65 Crucified

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 04:34 PM

I see as not what the old gamers want but as what these new gamers want. I agree with the rant from the link you provided. It's just never going to be the same and I expected that. Do I have to buy Halo 5? No, but I can stay optimistic for a franchise that I love. If it's not what people want, then why does 343 developed a game like COD?

#66 Blaze

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 04:36 PM

Maybe when the people in charge of these games stop fetishizing the market's lowest common denominator, we can start having great, unique AAA games again.


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#67 Crucified

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 04:39 PM

I agree the market has kept companies from innovation.

#68 deftech

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 04:49 PM

I see as not what the old gamers want but as what these new gamers want. I agree with the rant from the link you provided. It's just never going to be the same and I expected that. Do I have to buy Halo 5? No, but I can stay optimistic for a franchise that I love. If it's not what people want, then why does 343 developed a game like COD?

So because Call of Duty is the 'in' thing, every game should just ape Call of Duty? That's ridiculous. 343 needs to realize it is impossible for them to attain CoD sales numbers now. Multi-plat > console exclusive (maybe PC as well if 343 is feeling froggy). Just let Halo be Halo.



#69 KrAzY WiSh

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 04:54 PM

What is ADS? I've seen you guys mention this a couple of times.
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#70 Crucified

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 05:00 PM

So because Call of Duty is the 'in' thing, every game should just ape Call of Duty? That's ridiculous. 343 needs to realize it is impossible for them to attain CoD sales numbers now. Multi-plat > console exclusive (maybe PC as well if 343 is feeling froggy). Just let Halo be Halo.


No I didn't say that. What I'm saying, most companies are trying to follow the trend and unfortanutly that's why we get this COD gameplay. I agree with you all in where I wish for more innovation. The market is keeping us from this and it ticks me off.

#71 Crucified

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 05:01 PM

What is ADS? I've seen you guys mention this a couple of times.


Aim Down Scope.

#72 phreak

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 05:08 PM

Halo 3 and CoD 4 both released in 2007. That was the last classic Halo MP experience and that was the first CoD that really exploded. That was seven years ago and the market has shifted.

 

I'm not shocked that execs are really leery about trying the old school Halo formula. The generation that they are trying to reach did not grow up playing classic Halo. Yeah, Halo 4 didn't work, but the truth is, the classic formula probably wouldn't work today either. It would work for us, sure, because we've been playing it for 13 years. But it isn't going to get the sales numbers MS expects out of one of their flagships.

 

Now...they cold have tested this a lot better. They put a lot of work into H2A. I feel what they should have done is waited until 2016 to release H5, and put even more work (more weapons, maps, etc) into H2A and really pushed it this year and tested whether gamers still want those dynamics. Then based on the reaction, design H5 accordingly. That's what they should have done, they didn't.

 

I get that you guys are pissed that classic Halo is dead, but I'm not ready to say this game is bad based on some gifs. It is going to be different, doesn't mean it will be bad.

 

Also, the gif Dual posted had me literally lolling. Absolutely hilarious.


Edited by phreak, 09 November 2014 - 05:10 PM.


#73 Crucified

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 05:16 PM

Halo 3 and CoD 4 both released in 2007. That was the last classic Halo MP experience and that was the first CoD that really exploded. That was seven years ago and the market has shifted.
 
I'm not shocked that execs are really leery about trying the old school Halo formula. The generation that they are trying to reach did not grow up playing classic Halo. Yeah, Halo 4 didn't work, but the truth is, the classic formula probably wouldn't work today either. It would work for us, sure, because we've been playing it for 13 years. But it isn't going to get the sales numbers MS expects out of one of their flagships.
 
Now...they cold have tested this a lot better. They put a lot of work into H2A. I feel what they should have done is waited until 2016 to release H5, and put even more work (more weapons, maps, etc) into H2A and really pushed it this year and tested whether gamers still want those dynamics. Then based on the reaction, design H5 accordingly. That's what they should have done, they didn't.
 
I get that you guys are pissed that classic Halo is dead, but I'm not ready to say this game is bad based on some gifs. It is going to be different, doesn't mean it will be bad.
 
Also, the gif Dual posted had me literally lolling. Absolutely hilarious.


Well said.

#74 Blaze

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 07:02 PM

I agree the market has kept companies from innovation.


No, it's companies keeping innovation from the market. These AAA games are designed and marketed to sell a lot of copies because these companies want (not need) to make as much money as their competitors. They play it safe because they prioritize profit over everything else, and then pat themselves on the back when that works out for them. At the same time, these franchises slowly lose their identities, and as long as the industry continues to follow this trend, we're going to end up with one type of AAA game -- a cinematic, open world, near-future shooter with parkour, skill-trees, repetitive side missions, and at least one A-list Hollywood actor's face.

We don't actually know if unique AAA games can be successful anymore because these companies won't give them to us -- and they are the ones who ultimately decide what we get -- not the consumers. Modern AAA games are either old franchises that are riding on their own coattails or clones of shit we've seen a hundred times already.

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#75 Nightshade

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 07:10 PM

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You go ahead and you look at those charts and you tell me if you think 343i "understands the market"? Because quite frankly, they don't. I can promise you their overall goals with a major Halo product are as follows:
 

- They want you to buy the game, and ideally they'd like to whip you into a frenzy so you buy the $150 LegendaryXXX edition.
- They want you to play the game all year, and they want you to buy every single DLC piece they release. Ideally, they want you to pay for all of the DLC upfront in a pass, that way they get guaranteed money out of you regardless of whether or not you play it. This makes it so they don't have to sell you on the DLC, you won't be able to avoid due to a bad review, and you won't be able to forget paying them. Also, this forces you to come back and play the game, which they're hoping if you've lost the spark you'll do. Hopefully getting you to stay longer simply because you want to get your money's worth.
- They want you to evangelize this to your friends and family before and after launch. Before launch they want you to feel like you're on the cusp of something great. They want you to shame people who aren't taking part because you've reinforced in your mind (group mentality, because when you see enough people doing something it internally confirms to you that you're right) that they're "missing out" for not being like you and others. After launch, they want to dominate your friends list. They want all your friends who were on the fence to see everyone they know playing it. Which again, confirms to them internally. "Well if everyone's doing it they must be right."

Some of these goals were accomplished. But do you think people bought the DLC in droves? Do you think 343i appreciated the stark drop off in player base? Do you think that if they "understood the market" any of these goals wouldn't have been met?

The cardinal issue 343i doesn't understand is that it's very difficult to catch lightning in a bottle once let alone twice. They think that with Halo's established prowess and borrowed features hidden in the guise of "modernization" that they can steam roll something like Call of Duty. That they can convince this audience that buys CoD yearly that they should instead play Halo and only Halo. That Halo should fill this void they seek to fill. But it wont in Halo 5 just as the numbers have shown it didn't work in Halo 4. 

343i has forgotten that Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare didn't get this big because they "modernized" their controls. It didn't get this way because they stole from someone else. It got this way because the developers tried something novel, they took a risk on something and they forged their own path. Something Halo used to do, but since the handoff to 343i has become complacent with in the favor of simply stealing what works for others and asking why they aren't loved the same.


Edited by Nightshade, 09 November 2014 - 07:12 PM.


#76 phreak

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 07:20 PM

 

343i has forgotten that Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare didn't get this big because they "modernized" their controls. It didn't get this way because they stole from someone else. It got this way because the developers tried something novel, they took a risk on something and they forged their own path. Something Halo used to do, but since the handoff to 343i has become complacent with in the favor of simply stealing what works for others and asking why they aren't loved the same.

You are right. But you can't take a few gifs that show sprint and ads zoom instead of old zoom on a BR and assume that they aren't doing something novel, that they are just copying.

 

They are copying some features, sure, but all games do this. It is the sum of the parts that makes something new. The fact is, some of these features with Halo weaponry, high ttk, and map control instead of loadouts is new and unique, and is a natural evolution of the franchise.

 

It still might suck balls, but we simply don't know enough.


Edited by phreak, 09 November 2014 - 07:21 PM.


#77 Crucified

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 07:24 PM

Then why are they giving us more COD gameplay? Can you guys answer that? I'm talking about where the industry's going and the market is screaming for it. If you think 343 doesn't know the market then why continue using this gameplay style? I'm not disagreeing 343 bad buisness in the past, but they sure still want go down that route for their reasons. You said also they are playing it safe, right? Meaning they use COD mechanics to entice people to play Halo 5. Have you ever listen to what these new gamers want? I do everyday in my living room from my 11 year old and his friends. They want to pay for COD mechanics and every game that relates to it. I'm not saying an 11 year old is the entire market but these kids are on the market. These companies are always looking for fresh meat.

#78 Nightshade

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 07:48 PM

You are right. But you can't take a few gifs that show sprint and ads zoom instead of old zoom on a BR and assume that they aren't doing something novel, that they are just copying.

 

They are copying some features, sure, but all games do this. It is the sum of the parts that makes something new. The fact is, some of these features with Halo weaponry, high ttk, and map control instead of loadouts is new and unique, and is a natural evolution of the franchise.

 

It still might suck balls, but we simply don't know enough.

 

Legitimate question: Do you really think that people don't understand what ADS gameplay feels like at this point? 

Nothing is truly ever new, of that I will agree with you on. But you know as well as I do copying some features from other titles in comparison to specific hallmarks of the CoD franchise is entirely different. 

It really isn't the natural evolution of the franchise. It's the natural evolution of making the game like CoD to hopefully achieve the goals I stated earlier. A natural progression shouldn't have to forfeit what it is at its core to evolve. 

Then why are they giving us more COD gameplay? Can you guys answer that? I'm talking about where the industry's going and the market is screaming for it. If you think 343 doesn't know the market then why continue using this gameplay style? I'm not disagreeing 343 bad buisness in the past, but they sure still want go down that route for their reasons. You said also they are playing it safe, right? Meaning they use COD mechanics to entice people to play Halo 5. Have you ever listen to what these new gamers want? I do everyday in my living room from my 11 year old and his friends. They want to pay for COD mechanics and every game that relates to it. I'm not saying an 11 year old is the entire market but these kids are on the market. These companies are always looking for fresh meat.

Because they're being nearsighted and that's not market insight? The market actually isn't clamoring for CoD mechanics considering the last few CoD games have had lackluster (in comparison to previous titles) sales. Ever wonder why we're almost a week out from Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare's launch and we haven't heard "is the best selling CoD of all time!" Ever wonder why for Call of Duty: Ghosts they instead had to say it was the "highest selling next-gen game"? It's because franchise fatigue is setting in. Chasing mechanics of games people are growing tired of is stupid. They're trying to reinvigorate the spark of something that once worked instead of trying something new. That is nearsighted. And that isn't understanding the market when you ignore the current and future. 



#79 DualX

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 07:55 PM

It saddens me to see people defending this "new gameplay" stuff in Halo 5. Nightshade just explained why. They tried something new and stuck with it. Halo did fine until they tried to change things completely, trying to be something it isn't instead of embracing what it is. This sprinting and ADS doesn't make Halo, Halo. The core gameplay is fine and it still really does hold up. And again, their reasons are not justifiable when their last game died the way it did when they tried this shit the first time. "These new gamers" are what's ruining Halo if that's what 343 is really depending upon for this new trilogy.



#80 phreak

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 08:17 PM

 

Legitimate question: Do you really think that people don't understand what ADS gameplay feels like at this point? 

Nothing is truly ever new, of that I will agree with you on. But you know as well as I do copying some features from other titles in comparison to specific hallmarks of the CoD franchise is entirely different. 

It really isn't the natural evolution of the franchise. It's the natural evolution of making the game like CoD to hopefully achieve the goals I stated earlier. A natural progression shouldn't have to forfeit what it is at its core to evolve. 

Because they're being nearsighted and that's not market insight? The market actually isn't clamoring for CoD mechanics considering the last few CoD games have had lackluster (in comparison to previous titles) sales. Ever wonder why we're almost a week out from Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare's launch and we haven't heard "is the best selling CoD of all time!" Ever wonder why for Call of Duty: Ghosts they instead had to say it was the "highest selling next-gen game"? It's because franchise fatigue is setting in. Chasing mechanics of games people are growing tired of is stupid. They're trying to reinvigorate the spark of something that once worked instead of trying something new. That is nearsighted. And that isn't understanding the market when you ignore the current and future. 

But switching the zoom from the old zoom to an ads sytle does not fundamentally change gameplay. It is just a different view, which if it wasn't so closely tied to CoD would probably be aknowledged to look cooler. ads in CoD works much different because among other things you slow down when you scope and there is a hard difference in the engine between hip fire and zoom, which one of the H5 guys has already tweeted is not the case here.

 

The question becomes what is the core of Halo? I think it is the way melee works, the unique grenades, high ttk, weapons like plasma, rocket launcher, vehicles, map control, none of which are in CoD. What was the core problem of H4? This is not rhetorical. I feel like it was loadouts and weapon drop which changed the core dynamics of the gmae. Without those what makes it so different from classic? 


Edited by phreak, 09 November 2014 - 08:21 PM.




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