Jump to content


Photo

The Flood after H3?


  • Please log in to reply
58 replies to this topic

#1 vtancredi

vtancredi
  • Member
  • 133 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 15 May 2008 - 05:41 PM

I read through the Terminal articles, they are such a great job. Thanks so much for putting that together. There's something that is bothering me though. As far as I can tell, the Flood are far from permanently destroyed. They are just back to square 1, where they presumably were right after the Halos were fired. Let me elaborate: --~100,000 years ago: Samples of the flood were stored by the forerunners in the 7 Halo installations, as well as at least one research facility. All other Flood in galaxy destroyed. --Random time before Halo1: Flood escapes containment on Halo Installation 5, achieves enough biomass to form compound mind. (I put it here to give the Flood enough time to get enough biomass to form the mind. I'm assuming Halo2 only takes place a few weeks after Halo1.) --Halo1 Flood escapes from storage on Installation 4. Installation 4 structure critically damaged, however substantially whole. Flood status on Installation unknown. --Halo2 Flood compound mind on Installation 5 acquires spacecraft, conquers High Charity. Flood in a research facility destroyed when facility is destroyed by planetary gravity well. --Halo3 Flood sends a spacecraft to earth. Destroyed. Flood sends High Charity to the Arc. Destroyed. Summary: At least 2 Installations have active Flood still on them, and possibly spacecraft from the capture of Installation5 or High Charity. At minimum, we still have 7 Installations with Flood samples in them. Is it me, or are things almost exactly the way they were right when we started this whole mess? Even tossing out the possibility of rogue Flood infested spacecraft (which I think would be naive), all it takes is some fragment of the misguided Covenant civil war to go digging for a Forerunner superweapon, and break the Flood out of jail. Again. Am I missing something here?

#2 UHYVE

UHYVE
  • Veteran
  • 1,692 posts

Posted 15 May 2008 - 06:08 PM

Well, in my opinion, the flood on other installations shouldn't get out at least. The reason the flood got out on other installations seemed to be the doing of outside interference. And I think most covenant have learned their lesson about messing with the flood (the only possibility where I can imagine the flood getting out, is if part of the covenant know they are losing the civil war and want to take everyone out with them... but even that seems alittle unlikely). But it's probably true about small ships still carrying flood. I mean, it's possible that just one flood spore could be enough to start an infection... the forerunners did have to destroy ALL food sources in the galaxy (universe?) after all. Another infection would seem more than likely to me, but I think Bungie wanted Halo 3 to be more of a "everything's alright now" kind of ending. So I guess/hope we probably won't see much more flood.

Edited by UHYVE, 15 May 2008 - 06:10 PM.


#3 Jironimo

Jironimo

    Hunter Master Race

  • Admin
  • 3,928 posts

Posted 18 May 2008 - 06:38 PM

Not to mention that it's a much more manageable situation now. Before, the flood was out of control. Now, if the elites really wanted to they could glass the flood storage facilities from orbit and get rid of them once and for all.

#4 MikeV37

MikeV37
  • Member
  • 2 posts

Posted 22 May 2008 - 06:04 PM

Without a gravemind, the flood can't control the ships they are on. To do that they would need a new grave mind, and that requires more bodies, and that requires control of the ship. I don't remember what happened to installation 05, but installation 04 was destroyed, everyone on it died, and the replacement fell apart while firing, killing everyone on it. installation 00 was subject to a tactical pulse, killing everyone there as well. The flood on the other rings still exist, but they have been undisturbed for since the last time halo fired, and even if one of the sides wished to use it as a superweapon, they would have to find the ring first. Both of the rings found in halo 1&2 were found by chance. A better question would be what happened to the brutes. They were 12 billion strong at the start of halo 3, whereas the elites had 8 billion and the humans less then .5 billion.

#5 Saevio

Saevio

    Check out my gunz

  • Member
  • 124 posts

Posted 22 May 2008 - 06:27 PM

They could have taken the coordinates of the other rings locations from the Ark's control hallway(?)

#6 MikeV37

MikeV37
  • Member
  • 2 posts

Posted 22 May 2008 - 07:06 PM

Could have, but I don't expect they did. The humans were too preoccupied with truth, the elites weren't at the ark's control center, and the brutes were wiped out.

#7 vtancredi

vtancredi
  • Member
  • 133 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 26 May 2008 - 11:34 PM

Without a gravemind, the flood can't control the ships they are on. To do that they would need a new grave mind, and that requires more bodies, and that requires control of the ship.

I don't remember what happened to installation 05, but installation 04 was destroyed, everyone on it died, and the replacement fell apart while firing, killing everyone on it. installation 00 was subject to a tactical pulse, killing everyone there as well. The flood on the other rings still exist, but they have been undisturbed for since the last time halo fired, and even if one of the sides wished to use it as a superweapon, they would have to find the ring first. Both of the rings found in halo 1&2 were found by chance.

A better question would be what happened to the brutes. They were 12 billion strong at the start of halo 3, whereas the elites had 8 billion and the humans less then .5 billion.


Good point about the gravemind. The ships they are on would probably end up randomly drifting and the resident Flood becoming dormant as we know they can do.
I have to disagree with you on Installation04 however - we see in Halo2 that it is far from destroyed, a couple of chunks blew loose. Granted in time it may unravel, but who knows. This is confirmed in Halo3, the holograms of the Installations show #4 being mostly intact.
I think the ramification of the evidence is that at the end of Halo3, we aren't going to "live happily ever after". The table has just been cleared and the balls restacked is all.

#8 Anpheus

Anpheus
  • Member
  • 226 posts

Posted 27 May 2008 - 09:52 AM

I'm questioning those numbers on the relative strengths of the populations.

Currently the Earth has 6.6, 6.7 billion people on it. I believe in The Fall of Reach none of the colonized worlds had reached a billion, but many had hundreds of millions of people. Halopedia says Reach was up to seven hundred million, and that was the second most populated world (not anymore by the time of Halo 1.) We can surmise that there are a handful of worlds in the hundreds of millions, and that population on earth leveled off maybe around twice its current amount.


But I think you're grossly underestimating the Covenant factions' relative sizes. I can't imagine a massive space-faring people existing for millenia and not occupying dozens of worlds with a combined population in the triple digit billions.


Frankly, I think we've seen only a miniscule fraction of the Covenant so far.

#9 vtancredi

vtancredi
  • Member
  • 133 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 27 May 2008 - 10:14 PM

I'm questioning those numbers on the relative strengths of the populations.

Currently the Earth has 6.6, 6.7 billion people on it. I believe in The Fall of Reach none of the colonized worlds had reached a billion, but many had hundreds of millions of people. Halopedia says Reach was up to seven hundred million, and that was the second most populated world (not anymore by the time of Halo 1.) We can surmise that there are a handful of worlds in the hundreds of millions, and that population on earth leveled off maybe around twice its current amount.


But I think you're grossly underestimating the Covenant factions' relative sizes. I can't imagine a massive space-faring people existing for millenia and not occupying dozens of worlds with a combined population in the triple digit billions.


Frankly, I think we've seen only a miniscule fraction of the Covenant so far.

I totally see your point. I think the same thing, there's no way the Covenant should have such tiny numbers.
The Limited Edition and the legendary edition of Halo 3 presented these numbers in a book and DVD, thats where the previous poster appears to have gotten them. See http://www.halogrid....hp/t-22841.html for an interesting discussion of the numbers. He surmises the numbers represent the military population not necessarily the full population. I don't agree with that, and think the numbers should be way too low.
On the other hand, the Terminal discussions reflect the writers having a great grasp of numbers, discussing the size of the fleets and some planetary actions in what seem to be reasonable numbers.
I have to admit I don't get it.

#10 Arachnidus

Arachnidus
  • Member
  • 27 posts

Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:01 PM

I'm questioning those numbers on the relative strengths of the populations.

Currently the Earth has 6.6, 6.7 billion people on it. I believe in The Fall of Reach none of the colonized worlds had reached a billion, but many had hundreds of millions of people. Halopedia says Reach was up to seven hundred million, and that was the second most populated world (not anymore by the time of Halo 1.) We can surmise that there are a handful of worlds in the hundreds of millions, and that population on earth leveled off maybe around twice its current amount.


But I think you're grossly underestimating the Covenant factions' relative sizes. I can't imagine a massive space-faring people existing for millenia and not occupying dozens of worlds with a combined population in the triple digit billions.


Frankly, I think we've seen only a miniscule fraction of the Covenant so far.



Always keep in mind that the prophets have been killed, leaving the remains of the covenant with no more leadership, and at least three of the Covenant's client races either don't believe in the "Great Journey" or are fed up with the Covenant. The Grunts only stayed as they were essentially slaves, so it's safe to assume that they have either come to our side or will stay neutral. The Jackals are basically space pirates, so they can be a foreseeable threat in the future either way. The Brutes were probably hunted down by the Elites and either forced into extinction, or a cease fire w/ a chance at peace. The Hunters only joined under the threat of extinction, so they probably left the union. The Elites, of course, are on our side and are either going to stay out of our business, or perhaps create an alliance(seeing as The Arbiter now leads the Elites, they probably won't attack us or try to cause any trouble) with mankind. We don't know enough about the Drones to make a conclusion. The Engineers were technical slaves, so they're obviously not in the Covenant anymore. And the Prophet's race were most likely killed when High Charity was invaded by the Flood. As for any other unknown races of the Union, we don't know about them, so we can't assume anything.

#11 Anpheus

Anpheus
  • Member
  • 226 posts

Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:33 PM

But what I'm saying is, the numbers have been grossly misrepresented here. Future Earth should have a population at least in excess of twelve billion people, even assuming Earth's population growth slows drastically yesterday and even becomes negative due to spaceflight. The Earth can certainly support upwards of 15 billion (though how comfortably is subject to another debate.)

I think the numbers presented for the Brute and Elite homeworlds represent averages for what are likely to be many worlds populated with each. I doubt, given their disdain for each other, there are many interspecies worlds, but I would expect a few dozen densely populated Elite and Brute worlds each. The Covenant has existed for around 1000 years by the time of Halo: CE, and to believe the combined population of the Covenant falls anywhere below 100 billion seems like insanity.

#12 Cocopjojo

Cocopjojo
  • Veteran
  • 1,860 posts

Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:41 PM

"Insanity?" I don't think so. Humans have a lifespan of around a hundred years... how long do Brutes live? Prophets? Elites? I don't think we know. How often can they procreate? We don't know that, either. How much living space do they require to be comfortable? How big are their home planets? There are dozens and dozens of factors that go into why humanity has the population that it does, and you can't look at it as simply as "humans have lived this long and have a population of this many, and the Covenant have lived THIS long, therefore they should have a population of THIS many." That's just speculation. We don't know enough about the sociology of the Covenant to be able to call the idea of a population of below 100 billion an "insane" idea.

#13 Anpheus

Anpheus
  • Member
  • 226 posts

Posted 28 May 2008 - 05:23 PM

Even the Forerunner spoke of hundreds of billions.

I consider it completely, off the wall ludicrous to say that the population of the Covenant is only a few-fold that of Earth's despite this game taking place 500 years in the future and the Covenant having existed at our current levels of technology for well over a thousand years.

Edited by Anpheus, 28 May 2008 - 05:24 PM.


#14 Merguson

Merguson

    I don't know what I'm doing..

  • Veteran
  • 578 posts
  • Location:Toronto

Posted 28 May 2008 - 05:36 PM

It's all part of a UNSC government conspiracy. The Covenant and the Flood are really humans in disguise in order to "cleanse" the human population and turn attention away from terrorism. The back story about the Forerunners, Flood, and Covenant are all lies fabricated by the government. To prove this, go watch Michael Moore's new flick, I think it's called "Halo, I lied." It will be revealed in Halo 4: Dark Planetoid Rising also, a spartan wearing recon told me so.

#15 Stormtrooper30

Stormtrooper30

    Keep on your toes or you might lose 'em.

  • Member
  • 461 posts
  • Location:Tennessee

Posted 28 May 2008 - 07:42 PM

Mergy's right, guys. We should all just accept our differences and make up. Cause if we dont, the UNSC will kill us in our sleep. :( I would guess that the grunts populate rapidly, no way to be sure though. I think I remember reading something about Didact's family. Not sure if it mentions age or birth though, or if I even read it. I may just be making this up, I'm not sure. Have Covenant females ever been mentioned in the books?

#16 Paavi

Paavi

    The Pope

  • Member
  • 33 posts
  • Location:Kokkola, Finland

Posted 28 May 2008 - 08:50 PM

Mergy's right, guys. We should all just accept our differences and make up. Cause if we dont, the UNSC will kill us in our sleep. :(


I would guess that the grunts populate rapidly, no way to be sure though. I think I remember reading something about Didact's family. Not sure if it mentions age or birth though, or if I even read it. I may just be making this up, I'm not sure.

Have Covenant females ever been mentioned in the books?


There's some stuff about Jackal and Prophet females in Contact Harvest, but I don't remember the details.

#17 urk

urk

    Don't tase me, bro!

  • Member
  • 474 posts

Posted 29 May 2008 - 05:11 AM

There's something that is bothering me though. As far as I can tell, the Flood are far from permanently destroyed. They are just back to square 1, where they presumably were right after the Halos were fired.


This is correct. After the events depicted in Halo 3, the Flood outbreak has been quelled and the Gravemind destroyed, but samples still exists with the Forerunner facilities.

The difference between this event and the last is that those who eradicated the Flood remain behind to deal with the remains of the infestation. The Flood are no longer a mystery, nor will the Forerunner technology (most importantly the array) be seen as spiritual artifacts to be claimed and used for some divine purpose.

#18 Fenix10

Fenix10
  • Member
  • 1 posts

Posted 30 May 2008 - 09:54 AM

Always keep in mind that the prophets have been killed, leaving the remains of the covenant with no more leadership, and at least three of the Covenant's client races either don't believe in the "Great Journey" or are fed up with the Covenant. The Grunts only stayed as they were essentially slaves, so it's safe to assume that they have either come to our side or will stay neutral. The Jackals are basically space pirates, so they can be a foreseeable threat in the future either way. The Brutes were probably hunted down by the Elites and either forced into extinction, or a cease fire w/ a chance at peace. The Hunters only joined under the threat of extinction, so they probably left the union. The Elites, of course, are on our side and are either going to stay out of our business, or perhaps create an alliance(seeing as The Arbiter now leads the Elites, they probably won't attack us or try to cause any trouble) with mankind. We don't know enough about the Drones to make a conclusion. The Engineers were technical slaves, so they're obviously not in the Covenant anymore. And the Prophet's race were most likely killed when High Charity was invaded by the Flood. As for any other unknown races of the Union, we don't know about them, so we can't assume anything.



the engineers lived to fix things, I doubt they left the covenant or at least that they left the elites.

#19 Anpheus

Anpheus
  • Member
  • 226 posts

Posted 30 May 2008 - 12:12 PM

The engineers are most loyal to the Prophets, not the elites. They only ever listened to Prophets and ignored everyone else. They would do whatever they wanted, damn the consequences. Such as when they fixed a nova bomb much to the chagrin of the surrounding armada of Covenant vessels and the populace of a Covenant colony.

#20 vtancredi

vtancredi
  • Member
  • 133 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 30 May 2008 - 01:18 PM

This is correct. After the events depicted in Halo 3, the Flood outbreak has been quelled and the Gravemind destroyed, but samples still exists with the Forerunner facilities.

The difference between this event and the last is that those who eradicated the Flood remain behind to deal with the remains of the infestation. The Flood are no longer a mystery, nor will the Forerunner technology (most importantly the array) be seen as spiritual artifacts to be claimed and used for some divine purpose.


Ah, nice. That helps. Thanks.

There is still so much fertile ground that Bungie can explore now. It's inevitable they will make sequels. And they WILL have Master Chief John NoSurnameOnRecord in there, I guarantee you that.

My prediction:
New characters introduced and a great new storyline to explore some of the other Halos now that everyone knows about them, or hunt down the shield world mentioned in the novels. This allows us a very nice surprise at the last act, where we find MC and Cortana floating around a (or the) shield world. Then we join forces to kick someone's ass.
MC is a NPC. The trick is it's great to see him in action. We get to finally see how awesome we ourselves were from another point of view, now that we aren't driving him. Really appreciate how much he rocks as he clears a swath ahead of us while we carry the Widget? to the well protected control panel and start/stop the someone from doing whatever they were trying to do.

Can't wait.


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

IPB Skin By Virteq