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[Syracuse022]

Room's starting to spin... 'cuz of gayness...

[vociferous]

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[Syracuse022]

I just read the Gears of War EGM article and CliffyB has a very interesting quote. Sorry, but I'm going to butcher it, because I don't have the magazine in front of me. The gist of it is: Lots of shooters have great stories, pretty graphics, awesome weapons, or revolutionary features. The key seems to be nailing the feel. Halo really got that right. Those of you who can find the magazine ought to check out the exact quote, because what I said is really nothing like it. It immediately hit me, though, that his ideas are at the core of why Halo 2 irritates me so much. In Halo 1, when I fire the assault rifle, the rattle of the vibration and the sound of the gun make me feel like I'm really firing a slightly inaccurate automatic weapon. The pistol really feels like it's recoiling in my hand because of the force feedback, and grenades explode in ways that impact enemies, vehicles, and the environment. Punches feel solid, and if I'm aiming at part of someone's body and am close enough, it hits them. It "feels" right. In Halo 2, they once again nailed the force feedback and sound aspects of the weapons. The BR and the SMG feel and sound like I imagine they should, which makes them satisfying to use. The problem that really destroys the "feel", then, is the fact that bullets disappear after a certain distance, making the rifle in my hands seem almost useless- I'm zoomed in, I see the target, but I can't hit him? By the same token, a grenade that explodes and doesn't even move the Warthog it was directly beneath just "feels" silly. It's very frustrating, especially since they nailed the visual and auditory aspects of the grenades (especially the plasmas- the blue lightning in that explosion effect is amazing). Another aspect that is off (and has been mentioned countless times before) is the Chief's newfound middle school softball arm. A badass space cyborg that can jump 10 feet in the air and snipe someone in the face at the same time shouldn't have to aim so high to throw a grenade halfway across the map, realism be damned. Punches is where it really gets ludicrous. The idea that someone can lunge magically and sometimes hit but sometimes miss their target when within melee range is just as silly as the insanely long reach of punches in Halo 1. The difference is that in Halo 1, the gameplay benefitted from this aspect. Punches had a longer, more user-friendly reach, and they always hit where one was aiming. Halo 2, however, is a crap shoot. Will my punch hit? I don't know. It depends whether my Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon lunge works or not. Let's roll the dice, baby. That shit feels AWFUL. On the other end of the spectrum, however, is jumping, which is much smoother, easier and responsive in Halo 2. In Halo 1, jumps felt frustratingly delayed sometimes, so it's not like all of Bungie's tweaks and modifications broke the game. It's just that some really silly stuff keeps H2 from being as great as its predecessor. Most of the weapon problems have to do with only changing a few weapon tags here and there. It's amazing how much one little number (projectile range or speed, for instance) makes such a huge difference in how Bungie's engine plays. Auto-aim is controlled by these same small tweaks.

[BRASH]

We gotta plan a night we can go throw eggs and spray paint on Bungie HQ all the hate we feel. Someone needs to bring plastic forks and toilet paper. Quilted Northern, don't get that public restroom shit.

[RetroShadow]

Someone needs to bring plastic forks and toilet paper. Quilted Northern, don't get that public restroom shit.

I guess i can supply that material.

[Kinetic]

I'll bring the cooking spray to go with the forks, but they need to be metal.

[Syracuse022]

Ha. Ha. Ha.

So I'm on Half.com looking into selling my Limited Collector's Edition H2. Check out their description (important part highlighted in bold... Freud would be proud)

Description
HALO 2 is the sequel to the highly successful and critically acclaimed Halo Combat Evolved. In HALO 2, the saga continues as Master Chief a genetically enhanced super soldier is the only thing standing between the relentless Covenant and the destruction of all humankind.

Special Features
The making of Halo 2: behind the scenes of bungle studios; featurettes on game design, animation, music and more; deleted scenes and outtakes; art gallery: from concept to game; commentaries from the development team; and much more.

Link

Seriously, though, anyone want mine? For money?

[Va1or]

How much?

[BRASH]

Selling your LE copy is so hater. 'Cuse winz.

[Syracuse022]

I'm thinking probably $22 :cool: , but do you mind if I get back to you? I'm looking into trying to sell an Xbox at my school, which might be more lucrative if I threw in H2... If I don't manage to sell my Xbox here, the same thing applies for my Halo Edition Xbox if anyone is interested.

[Jironimo]

I want the Halo Edition one if you still have the box. How much sucka?

[Syracuse022]

It depends what you want it with. On my school's website I'm offering it for $200 including -Halo 1 -Halo 2 LCE -DVD remote -one controller -the advanced AV cable (the one capable of producing S-video and fiber optic output- actual S-video and F/O cables not included... sorry... don't have em with me at school.) How much was shipping when you sent those 360s? Also, I don't have the original box it came in anymore, sorry... Since Valor asked for the H2 LCE first, I'd have to let him have first crack at that. I'd figure at that point you just want the console, and I'd send it your way for $140 or so. Would you mind paying for shipping though? I'm kind of on a college budget (and that speeding ticket I just picked up is killer...) I'm kind of gouging the price at my school, mostly because I'd like to see the box have, you know, a GOOD owner, and these kids at my school HAVE to be holding controllers upside down - it's the only explanation for how bad they are. So yeah.

[Jironimo]

All I need is the halo xbox, and the halo controller with power cable. I don't mind paying shipping, it's only like 5/10 bucks UPS ground. I really wanted the box, damn it.

[Syracuse022]

PS I'm not saying I don't like Halo 2 by the way, I could never decide which Halo game I like most, they're very different games and hard to compare.

Seems to me to be the opposite of the formula for successful sequel development...

[Syracuse022]

That's the problem. It IS a great multiplayer game. But it professes to be the sequel to the greatest multiplayer game I've ever played. And from weapon behavior to physics to vehicular combat to melees, it's nothing like it. And that's not okay. Publish it under a different title and I'll bet you money you'd have people saying, "It's good, but it's not Halo. Halo does (insert complaint here) much better." I fucking guarantee that's what would have happened. Instead, I feel like I'm bashing my head against a wall, trying to fit a square peg into the circular hole because Bungie followed a sequel formula that went something like this: "Damn. People really liked our game, huh? Let's change everything. It's cool how 2 years later people still turn to our game for multiplayer because it's so deep and rewards skill. Let's make it so that instead of having a learning curve, everything's automated so that people can enjoy that rewarding feeling of success without pesky things like playing the game and learning its nuances. In fact, while we're changing stuff, let's not even look at actual fan complaints and just do whatever the hell we want. Yeah. Ready... break!" Fixing what's not broken can kill a sequel. By the same token, sometimes it can revolutionize the way we play the game, give us something amazing that changes everything. Apparently Bungie and Ubisoft decided to take the "fix what's not broken" route, ignoring critical acclaim and hardcore fanbases. For most of us (i.e. not Ivan and UHYVE), it's becoming increasingly apparent that Halo 2 is hardly a revolution and that the changes Bungie went out on a limb for were less than successful (lunge melees, dual-wielding, the sword, disappearing bullets, power weapon system, no pistol, etc. - these didn't amaze me or change the way I want to play the game... instead, they frustrated me and made me want to go back to Halo 1). Blaze is absolutely correct in comparing Double Agent's multiplayer to Halo 2's because it is such an enormous departure from what made the series famous. He's decided that the dumbed-down gameplay isn't rewarding enough for him- there's nothing to keep him coming back for more after the initial enjoyment wears off. Brash is still engaged by the gameplay (a case of the square peg, the circular hole, but that's just my opinion), but how long will it last for such a hardcore fan of the previous iteration? I'm willing to wager he eventually reaches a point where the dumbing-down frustrates him because it's not in there to reward players like him. It's in there to reward the Madden and NBA Live players of the world (the fabled casual gamer), who can't handle a game that requires time and effort to become good at. How do you make it fun for the casual gamer? Give them a chance. How do you alienate the hardcore gamer? Make it so that the work he's put into getting good at a game is all but eliminated by gameplay with too shallow of a learning curve. Time will tell...

[mattacus]

Cuse, you have almost perfectly summed up the feelings in the deepest most secret parts of my heart. I love you.

[Jironimo]

It's in there to reward the Madden and NBA Live players of the world (the fabled casual gamer), who can't handle a game that requires time and effort to become good at. How do you make it fun for the casual gamer? Give them a chance. How do you alienate the hardcore gamer? Make it so that the work he's put into getting good at a game is all but eliminated by gameplay with too shallow of a learning curve. Time will tell...

So a casual gamer couldn't enjoy Halo CE? Halo CE was famous for the quick learning curve and simple gameplay. The better players are still the better players in H2. It maybe easier to shoot and kill and H2, but there's definitely much more strategy involved. Because of the maps and their depth, you must use better strategy for Flag or Assault and even TS compared to HCE. I even heard you say "damn how'd Ivan do that with the Flag" yesterday, and it's because we run plays with such speed and precision you'd think we're playing football.

Cuse, you complained that I didn't have to remind you of the fact that H2 complaints weren't allowed anywhere else on the forum and here you go again. I don't want to see anything else about H2 in this thread.

[Syracuse022]

So a casual gamer couldn't enjoy Halo CE? Halo CE was famous for the quick learning curve and simple gameplay. The better players are still the better players in H2. It maybe easier to shoot and kill and H2, but there's definitely much more strategy involved. Because of the maps and their depth, you must use better strategy for Flag or Assault and even TS compared to HCE. I even heard you say "damn how'd Ivan do that with the Flag" yesterday, and it's because we run plays with such speed and precision you'd think we're playing football.

The elements of Halo 2 you're talking about are ALL in Halo 1!!!!!!1!!!!AReyouSHITtingME!!!!11!!!!

Allow me to demonstrate:

Take yourself back to CTF on Halo 1. Ever seen the 5 second capture on Battle Creek by TDT? Ever seen a guy turret jump from a Warthog, directly into a base on Blood Gulch, run out the back door and get picked up immediately by the Warthog driver, who has timed his lap around the base? Hell, have you ever seen the map Damnation? It's the best map in either game, and if you think Zanzibar/Terminal/etc. represent such a revolution in their assymetrical design, maybe you'd better go back and look at Damnation, eh? Let's say I'm on Blue Team, who spawn in the lower base. As I infiltrate the Red Base, I have all sorts of options. As I exfiltrate, I have even more, with the ability to drop to all sorts of different levels on the map. I was going to walk you through some of the numerous strategical opportunities, but you know what? Fuck that. Go plug in a second controller and tool around on that map by yourself. If the "map and its depth" don't immediately jump out at you, something is very wrong, and I'll give you a hint, it's not with the game or the map.

The point is, my exclamation had nothing to do with Halo 2 as a game, it had to do with CTF as a gametype- I don't know how many times I've yelled something similar at Halo 1 LANs. And the fact that you ran a way out of the base that I wasn't expecting does absolutely nothing to convince me of statements like "depth" and "much more strategy." As for "speed and precision... football," PLEASE dude, just once, go watch a video of TDT or StK when they were dominating the Halo 1 tournament scene. The skill necessary for slaying (a skill you yourself admit is under-rewarded in Halo 2), the nuances of strategy, the added intensity because of weapon timing- nothing in Halo 2 can match that. Let me give you an example- on the pro level, a number of slayer gametypes deteriorate into camping matches in both games. In Halo 2, whichever team has the sniper on maps like Lockout or Gemini (remember when that was in MLG? What a disaster...) can camp as long as they like; in Halo 1, rockets, snipers, power-ups, they're all coming back on a set timer, one that is not dependent on the team with the upper hand dropping a given weapon. If the team that had the advantage sits back for too long, the other team will be armed to the teeth and ready to break their camping set-up. It creates a much more compelling gameplay experience, as teams gain the upper hand then try to press the advantage in order to maintain control of the map and pick up the power weapons on the next timing cycle.

As for the maps in Halo 2- in all of my (by now probably hundreds of) rants, I have NOT ONCE criticized Halo 2's maps. Zanzibar, Terminal, Colossus... all of these maps are fantastically designed, and if I were playing Halo 1 on them, I'd probably die of happiness because of the well-designed spaces for circulation and encounters. Instead, the maps are hamstringed by the gameplay, and everytime I visit them, it's all I can do to not leave mid-game, especially the larger of these, where bullets disappear and vehicles roam free and unchecked. What a sad existence for such beautiful maps.

One final thing: the learning curve? I have no problem with the learning curve in either game at the lower end (first 20 hours). In fact, I get a kick out of watching my girlfriend play Halo 2. It's really fun to see the game played by the people it was designed for (see: Bungie, soccer mom testing). Once you get past the early mechanics however, how can you even compare the two? Whether my sword lunge hits or not has nothing to do with me, beyond my pressing R when aimed at the person. Whether my rocket hits or not, again, has absolutely nothing to do with me beyond the very easy to learn skill of pressing and holding R. Where's the depth that will keep me coming back? I'll never experience the thrill of watching a Warthog drive across the opposite side of Blood Gulch, leading them by a good 40 degrees, pulling the trigger and watching in awe as a rocket slowly makes its way across the map to obliterate the Warthog and kill all three people inside, spilling my flag harmlessly to the ground. Moments like that are rewards for the hardcore, for the people who play the game for hours until they have an inherent sense for the mechanics of the game. If the mechanics are nothing more than lock-on and let the rocket or sword do the work for you, there's nothing compelling there, nothing that will keep me coming back.

I win. Except you still won't get it because:
1) You won't plug in Halo 1 and look at the depth and strategy of Damnation
2) You won't download a video of TDT (Zyos, Darkman, Shizz, and Alex) and/or StK (Strangepurple, Clockwork, Ogre 1, and Ogre 2) in their prime. (http://www.halo-pro.com)
3) You don't listen... nothing in your argument against my post had anything to do with what I actually said, and any counter-argument will almost assuredly be as ignorant

I dare you to tell me that Halo 2 would still be this popular among the hardcore players if Halo 1 had online play and Halo 2 had been released under a different name. In addition, I'll wager that even after calling you out, you still won't look at TDT's 5-second cap, or find a Halo 1 montage and see how much more epic the plays are simply because of the necessity of skill.

Did you know I had a friend who played Halo 1 with us for 3 years, has played Halo 2 for the last 2, and just got his first Killtacular this summer? It was with the sword. This kid yells about anything, shotgun kills, sticks from close range, flag captures... He didn't even get excited. He knew it was bullshit. Nothing cheapens an accomplishment more than not even being involved in its attainment. Anyone else in that room could have pulled R and gotten the same effect. That's the key to my argument. If you get one thing, get that. Halo 2 is not fun because all of these accomplishments that before were the result of hours of practicing with a pistol, or perfecting your double melee technique are now the result of lunges, auto-aim and homing.

I'm done. I win. Motherfucking red team. If you still don't get it, whatever- you probably didn't watch the videos.

[mattacus]

Cuse, your rants always make me want to go play OG Halo...

[Supa Ben]

Whether my sword lunge hits or not has nothing to do with me, beyond my pressing R when aimed at the person.

Lies.

Many Factors come into play here that can change the outcome.

Dodging- yes you can dodge the sword with relative ease if you know how.

Jumping- Jumping before the slash gets rid of a big factor that makes you miss, the ground slope.

General aiming comes into play a lot to if you aim far right and he's running left there is a good chance you will

miss.

It actually has a bunch to do with you, and sword whores are not that hard to kill if you know how i.e. "Skillz"

and also noob combos goes the same too.