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#21 Nightshade

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 03:38 PM

Nightshade i love you're theory. The Flood are a weapon of massive destruction. The Halo rings are ment to deploy the Flood. But that doesn't explain the role of the Reclaimers. Are they the one's that take back the territory that is controlled ny the Flood. I also don't understand what the Covenant's facination with Forunner tech. I personally think that the prophets knew of the Flood all along and used The Forunner tech as a scapegoat to unleash massive damage onto the Universe. I'm not sure wht you guys think but I like this Thread. I also don't see why you guys think the ark is a shelter from the Flood. What about Onyx? and the other spartans? Maybe the ark is a gateway to that "heaven". maybe when the Ark opens up, the other spartans pop out, or possibly a gajillion Flood. I'm not sure.

You know to add on to my theory, I am begining to think that maybe the Prophets view this as a form of the Rapture. I mean, think about it, a parasite of ultimate destruction is unleashed to destroy everything in it's path. The only way to get rid of it is to end all life in the universe. A great cleansing of all sin, but that means that a few must be left to survive to re-populate it. To begin a new, like in the Rapture.

It's just another theory.

Edited by Nightshade, 25 April 2007 - 03:38 PM.


#22 mattacus

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:26 PM

Using Biblical names just plays tricky with the old head and makes you think, and it gets confusing because you dont know why they are using those names. But it think They could have quite possibly just used the Biblical story of the flood and the Ark from the Bible but that is it. I am not arguing that parrallel. But outside that I do not think that Bungie is trying to communite to us, though using words like Covenant, Flood, Ark, that this story was heavily based on Judeo-Christianity.


Thou makest no sense.

And, uh, that's what she said.

#23 Poe Ghostal

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 04:42 AM

I still think the more interesting question is how much of the story Bungie is making up ad hoc, but to comment on the topic at hand...

...using Biblical (or mythological) references in a science fiction story to refer to either distant past or far future events is a cliche--some might say a hoary cliche. Effectiveness of such tropes aside, it IS something that's been done many times before. Stargate is the first example that jumps to mind, but there are plenty of others; Arthur C. Clarke's novel Childhood's End is all about this idea. There's also a novel by Tim Powers called Declare that deals with the Great Flood, though that's more Lovecraftian horror than sf.

Personally, I do think Bungie's take on the Flood, while not making much sense from a paleoanthropological standpoint, is fairly clever and creative. I'm fine with their concepts of the Flood and the Ark, and find them interesting.

But I still hate the Flood levels.

I hope they become intelligent in Halo 3--that'd be a nice change from "frantically sword-hit the stupid rip-off of The Thing whacking me in the face with a tentacle."

#24 mattacus

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 05:11 AM

I think this thread got to this point because if we accept that the use of "Halo" "Flood" and "Covenant," John 117 ("John 1:17, or some variation thereof), the the emergence of an Ark, use of a Savior, and other things give weight to the idea that the whole plot was written beforehand. Why else do they refer to their internal reference source for all things Halo as the "Halo Bible" and not the "Halo Encyclopedia" or the "Halo Data Archive"?

#25 NJ Shlice

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 10:10 AM

I think this thread got to this point because if we accept that the use of "Halo" "Flood" and "Covenant," John 117 ("John 1:17, or some variation thereof), the the emergence of an Ark, use of a Savior, and other things give weight to the idea that the whole plot was written beforehand. Why else do they refer to their internal reference source for all things Halo as the "Halo Bible" and not the "Halo Encyclopedia" or the "Halo Data Archive"?


Hey Mattacus,

John 1:17 for the law was given through Moses. Grace and mercy given through Jesus Christ.
John 11:7 Then he said to his disciples "Let's go back to Judea."

Well we can derive that Spartan John 117 doesn't help us much.

The word Halo does not appear once in the Bible.

Covenant = Promise.

And we all know Ark and Flood story in bible.

Now how about Savior: That is where we find that Halo and Christianity are very very different. The problem that many(especially the Jews) religions have with Christianity is that Jesus was not much of a savior at all. For the Jews he wasn't the "Savior" that they waited for. Jesus came to Earth and Died!!! His sole purpose on Earth was to Die!!
That can hardly be compared to a story involving a Spartan who conquers the world and fights epic battles and cannot be stopped and has to single-handedly prevent the destruction of the universe by fighting aliens.

When the Chief DIES for all of mankind or the universe for that matter. Then we can start talking correllation. Until then. I feel good about where I stand.

Why do they refer to it as the "Halo Bible" ?
People use the word Bible as a very common term to refer to the catalog of all information on certain tops
Here are a few Amazon.com book searches with the word Bible in them. As you can see. There is an abundance that do not contain anything to do with Christianity.

Bible Books 1
Bible Books 2
Bible Books 3

In case you didnt feel like clicking. Those are over 30,000 results of books containing the word Bible in their title that range from Entertainment Bible to Financial Bible to Architecture Bible.

Poe made a good point a couple posts above.

#26 mattacus

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 11:59 AM

Okay, it is clear that you do not like the idea that Bungie draws inspiration consistently from Christianity/Judaism. While I do not concede your assertions (oh, that I may have strength to not comment on them in the way that comes to me most naturally!), I would like to know if you have a theory (beyond the "it doesn't sit well" theory with which we are already familiar). And if you do have an idea (or a set of them), please share them with us so that this discussion may become more rich and fulfilling for all involved.

Edited by mattacus, 26 April 2007 - 11:59 AM.


#27 NJ Shlice

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 12:37 PM

Okay, it is clear that you do not like the idea that Bungie draws inspiration consistently from Christianity/Judaism. While I do not concede your assertions (oh, that I may have strength to not comment on them in the way that comes to me most naturally!), I would like to know if you have a theory (beyond the "it doesn't sit well" theory with which we are already familiar). And if you do have an idea (or a set of them), please share them with us so that this discussion may become more rich and fulfilling for all involved.


I do not think that there is much more to discuss. You would like what kind of theory from me?

I didnt think this was a matter of theories. I just think that we are on different pages about Bungie's inspirations. You seem to think that they pulled more from Judaism/Christianity than I think they did.

that's fine. I'm sure you know more about Bungie than I do.

I just dont believe that bungie's inspirations from Christianity go farther than Noah's ark and the Flood that would destroy Earth/The world.

Covenant,Halo,Savior.... I do not believe that Bungie drew inspiration from Christianity in regards to those topics.

/On Topic
So you think that the entire story was concocted before the release of Halo CE and the story was not modified before the second and third games, and the books?

Edited by NJ x Falk0r, 26 April 2007 - 12:39 PM.


#28 mattacus

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 12:48 PM

So you think that the entire story was concocted before the release of Halo CE and the story was not modified before the second and third games, and the books?


Substantively, no, it has not been modified. Maybe a few changes here and there for the fans, but, the beginning and the end, I believe, remain the same. Check the Cortana Letters. This was all in the hopper before we got ahold of drop one of Halo:CE information.

Edited by mattacus, 26 April 2007 - 12:49 PM.


#29 Va1or

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 12:57 PM

Now how about Savior: That is where we find that Halo and Christianity are very very different. The problem that many(especially the Jews) religions have with Christianity is that Jesus was not much of a savior at all. For the Jews he wasn't the "Savior" that they waited for. Jesus came to Earth and Died!!! His sole purpose on Earth was to Die!!
That can hardly be compared to a story involving a Spartan who conquers the world and fights epic battles and cannot be stopped and has to single-handedly prevent the destruction of the universe by fighting aliens.

When the Chief DIES for all of mankind or the universe for that matter. Then we can start talking correllation. Until then. I feel good about where I stand.


The role of Christ as recorded in the Bible was not ended when he lay down his life and was slaughtered as a lamb. The story continues that he was raised from the dead. It goes on to say that he now lives and waits until he will come again as a roaring lion, to wage literal war with an army of angels and with flaming fire to destroy those who have not obeyed his gospel and who oppress his people. The Bible talks of these last days before his return as ones of excruciating expectation by his people (Christians), where they are suffering for his name. This is not something Christians have been far removed from, around the world, since his gospel was in it's infancy.

In other words, if you are looking for the perfect warrior, look no further than Christ. He is not the cuddly, femanine, soft-skinned, caricature of so many Sunday school felt boards. He is the living, breathing Son of God, who created the foundations of the Earth. God allows rebellion and evil to thrive only for a season. Then he will crush it underfoot for all time.

Edit:

NJ, did you read my religion article? It's not brilliant or anything, but I think it does help clarify some of Bungie religious inspirations. For example, Cortana quotes Jesus, the early name for the Arbiter was specifically Islamic, etc.

Edited by Va1or, 26 April 2007 - 01:01 PM.


#30 mattacus

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 01:00 PM

I wasn't gonna' say anything about your retarded misconceptions of your homeboy, Fal. But Va1or did it anyway. Nevertheless, Plot Progression: It's right on schedule! :banana:

#31 Va1or

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 01:04 PM

Va1or did it anyway.


Couldn't help myself!

#32 NJ Shlice

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 01:16 PM

I wasn't gonna' say anything about your retarded misconceptions of your homeboy, Fal. But Va1or did it anyway.

Nevertheless, Plot Progression: It's right on schedule! :banana:



Good job turning a debate/conversation into you just being a dick.

I'm sorry I do not have misconceptions of Jesus.

Everyting that is talked about as Christ's second coming is in the Book of Revelation, and no I'm sorry it is not as spelled out so simply as Va1or has it written. The entire book of Revelation is up for interpretation. But we are not going to get into Revelation interpretation.

But yes there will be an end times. There will be a battle at Armageddon. It will be ugly.

But Master chief is no Jesus, he is not a savior.

Did master chief have a father that created the world? Did master chief die for his people's sins? Was the only way for the world to continue forever was for Master Chief to be tortured and die?

Pick up your Bible Mattacus and stop being an dickjust to be a dick.

dont ever insult me again by calling my religioue beliefs retarded and misconstrued.

hero yes, savior no

Edited by NJ x Falk0r, 26 April 2007 - 01:18 PM.


#33 Va1or

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 01:20 PM

Everyting that is talked about as Christ's second coming is in the Book of Revelation, and no I'm sorry it is not as spelled out so simply as Va1or has it written. The entire book of Revelation is up for interpretation. But we are not going to get into Revelation interpretation.


Actually, his second coming is talked about in many other places besides Revelation. For example, Paul mentions his coming with angels to wage war in Second Thessalonians.

Also, I would be careful how you respond to people who have been a part of this forum considerably longer than yourself. I'm not saying that what Matt said was polite or needed but I am saying that if you wanna stay around here, you probably should try and roll with the punches a little more.

#34 NJ Shlice

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 01:21 PM

In other words, if you are looking for the perfect warrior, look no further than Christ. He is not the cuddly, femanine, soft-skinned, caricature of so many Sunday school felt boards. He is the living, breathing Son of God, who created the foundations of the Earth. God allows rebellion and evil to thrive only for a season. Then he will crush it underfoot for all time.


I"m sorry but I will not comment on a Christ that is not known to us yet.

This is all speculation. No one knows what he is going to be like when he returns. When the end time comes and Jesus returns we can start talking about how he acted when its all over

until then. I will comment on the Jesus that came down to DIE for me.

not to fight, but to DIE

#35 Va1or

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 01:23 PM

The Bible does have specific things to say about Jesus after his death. This includes his curent state and his future actions. if you choose not to believe them, that is up to you. I just want to be clear that the Bible has already spoken on these things.

#36 NJ Shlice

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 01:24 PM

Actually, his second coming is talked about in many other places besides Revelation. For example, Paul mentions his coming with angels to wage war in Second Thessalonians.

Also, I would be careful how you respond to people who have been a part of this forum considerably longer than yourself. I'm not saying that what Matt said was polite or needed but I am saying that if you wanna stay around here, you probably should try and roll with the punches a little more.


No. sorry.

that was way out of line and un-calledfor.

I wont sit back and let somoene insult me like that

#37 mattacus

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 01:37 PM

You are right Fal. It was out of line to refer to ideas you hold dearly as "misconceptions" and "retarded" without doing more to back up my statements. I apologize. This isn't the proper venue for such discussion. EDIT: sure, this post is off topic, and I could easily PM you with this, but if you were publicly insulted, you deserve a public apology.

Edited by mattacus, 26 April 2007 - 01:38 PM.


#38 NJ Shlice

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 02:28 PM

You are right Fal. It was out of line to refer to ideas you hold dearly as "misconceptions" and "retarded" without doing more to back up my statements. I apologize. This isn't the proper venue for such discussion.

EDIT: sure, this post is off topic, and I could easily PM you with this, but if you were publicly insulted, you deserve a public apology.



No hard feelings.

I love this Forum and really respect you guys.

Sometimes religious discussions get a little out of hand.

#39 mattacus

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 02:34 PM

No hard feelings.

I love this Forum and really respect you guys.

Sometimes religious discussions get a little out of hand.


Yeah, sometimes.

#40 Syracuse022

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 02:54 PM

I think the misunderstanding is occurring because Va1or and Matt are holding (correctly) to the notion that Bungie draws heavily on religious imagery for characterization and the development of themes in the Halo series. Falkor is staunchly defending the fact that the Halo Story Bible is not a literal Bible. For example,

Did master chief have a father that created the world? Did master chief die for his people's sins? Was the only way for the world to continue forever was for Master Chief to be tortured and die?

No, Falkor, Master Chief did not have a father that created the world. For a character in a literary work to be a Christ figure, their story doesn't need to parallel Christ's, it just needs to evoke similar imagery and themes. For good examples from high school English, look at The Old Man and the Sea and Tom Joad in The Grapes of Wrath. If you can't see the figurative language that is setting Master Chief up as a probable Christ figure for the Halo series, I pity you. Let me demonstrate:

I am a monument to all your sins.

(Interestingly, during this sequence, the Chief is bound by Gravemind's tentacles and suspended in the air, a visual metaphor that strengthens the verbal one). The point, Falkor, is that a character can be a Christ figure without the story necessarily representing a religious parallel. If a character is going to sacrifice himself to save a group he represents or protects, there are few better examples with which to compare him than the most famous one, no? Also, Falkor, we'll wait and see, but it's very likely that the answer to your last question is a yes... sorry bud.



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