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Campaign: Halo Trilogy Plot Progression

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#41 NJ Shlice

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 02:59 PM

Also, Falkor, we'll wait and see, but it's very likely that the answer to your last question is a yes... sorry bud.


If that happens. I will be speechless

#42 NJ Shlice

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 03:06 PM

If that happens. I will be speechless


the main piece i see missing to the puzzle is Sacrifice

#43 Syracuse022

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 05:48 PM

the main piece i see missing to the puzzle is Sacrifice

Last I checked, being taken from your home at age 6; being operated on in dangerous and painful ways; then made to fight for millions of people for whom you are never truly allowed to die even if you are ripped to shreds by shrapnel or melted like wax by a plasma pistol overcharge or every bone in your body is broken by two hunter twins is the definition of "sacrifice" Maybe that's just me.

#44 mattacus

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 05:57 PM

Yeah, when he takes the brunt of the Covenant's wrath on the humans, that seems like an appropriate level (especially if he dies for it in the end). /more Christian yet, in my opinion less cool, would be a resurrection after he's dead...like at the end of Finding Nemo :woot:

#45 NJ Shlice

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 09:04 PM

The chief could be fighting off the covi but he is losing. He tells all his men "I got some nukes, hide in this hole here and i'm gonna blow the meatballs out of this place." Everyone else "But the blast will hit us in the hole, and what about you." Dont worry about me. Chief takes off his chest/back armor runs in the middle of nowhere, places his armor on the nukes and sets a detonation time 15 seconds. He sets it, starts running towards his men, but he has no chest plate, and gets tagged with a few plasma bolts. He dies. everyone hides in hole. nukes blow up, all covi/flood dead. victory!!

#46 Jironimo

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 09:18 PM

I do not believe that Bungie's (or whoever originated the story) had any intent of taking Christianity's story and just adding more interesting elements to it. And even if they did, than I do not think it was there idea to communicate that to us by using such words as Covenant and Flood.

I, for one, love the plot of this story and i enjoy it while not making any connection what-so-ever between it and Judeo-Christianity.

Bungie definitely borrows from the story of the Bible for inspiration. No doubt about it. That doesn't mean that it follows and tells the same story, it just means they borrow from some of the stories we know in the Bible (The Great Flood) and from some of the figures (Christ) for inspiration in the story they're telling. Yes it's been done to death (eg. The Matrix), but it's nonetheless well done.

But Master chief is no Jesus, he is not a savior.

He's definitely not Jesus, and I don't think Bungie's trying to make him out to be equal or as important as Jesus. They are however implying similarities in THE STORY and THE MAIN CHARACTER for dramatic effect. He is a SAVIOR, and will probably die. All the clues point to it, and just think about the "Starry Night" commercial.

Radio, Sarge - Any sign of the Chief?
Radio, Marine - Negative Sarge I think we lost him(Chief).

Master Chief - NOT YET.

Obvious.

Also, I would be careful how you respond to people who have been a part of this forum considerably longer than yourself. I'm not saying that what Matt said was polite or needed but I am saying that if you wanna stay around here, you probably should try and roll with the punches a little more.

I really like you Falkor but Valor has a good warning for you. This community is headed by a group of men who have become very good friends. This community is for us, and we don't tolerate people outside our circle disrespecting any of us in that way. This is not a typical forum, it's very private and we are ban happy (me particularly). This does not excuse what matt said to you, BUT if you have a problem you need not respond with more insults and instead bring it to an admin. Consider it forgotten.

Anyway, if you don't think MC showing his face and dying would make a good ending just think about the ending in Return of the Jedi and consider how powerful the fact that Vader shows his face is. Then read this thread - A Bright Darkness

#47 Mike

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 10:31 PM

Hello.

It would only be fair to preface this post by three things. First, I am writing this at the request of IV4N. Second, I strongly enjoy playing Halo, but I am not nearly as familiar with its story and characters, nor the Halo 3 leaks, as I would like to be. Third, I almost NEVER post on forums, so please forgive me if I do not follow some proper etiquette of which I may be unaware. With this out of the way, if I may, I would like to weigh in on "The Areas of My Expertise" (which, btw, is a very funny book by John Hodgman).

First, I would be inclined to argue that the Chief's name and Spartan number, John 117, is a reference to John 1:17. NJ x Falk0r quotes John 1:17 and John 11:7, and says, "Well we can derive that Spartan John 117 doesn't help us much," but I beg to differ. We must remember that John 1:1-18 is the prologue to John's gospel, and it is both grammatically and lexically well crafted to set up the major themes of John's gospel. What then is the function of John 1:17? This verse, all well as much of the New Testament (NT) established a dichotomy between two eras, the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Much more would need to be said here on difference between the perception and the intention of the Old Covenant, but I think it is fair to say that the Old Covenant was characterized by Law, with Moses as its central figure. One of the great mysteries of Bible, however, is that these two eras, or ages, are not chronological in the strict sense, i.e., one ends and another begins, but they overlap. Almost all of NT Theology rests here, in the overlap of the ages, in the continuity and discontinuity of the Old Covenant and the New, and the tension and war that rages on not only in the individual but in society and the world as a whole. Applying this to the Halo story, the war between the Covenant and Earth (or the Chief) appears to point to the idea that this war is largely ideological, that is, between truth (about the true purpose of the Halos) and a strict legalism, or a strict devotion to a misunderstanding of a Covenant. This them seems to be the meaning of the Chiefs name, in that it points not only to the significance of ideological struggle present in the war, but it also points to the monumental significance of the unfolding events, the dawning of a new era, of a possible new creation.

Second, and much more briefly, as I read through the posts on this topic, I could not help but feel that the distinction between metaphor and allegory must be remembered (as it clearly was in many of the posts).

Third, and in relation to my second point, I find it difficult to believe that the Chief is at least a metaphor for Jesus Christ. The Christ-image is so deeply burned into the conscience of all Westerners, that whether consciously or sub-consciously, it surfaces quite frequently. (I tend to think that Superman Returns, for example, was one of the more conscious reinforcements of this imagery that I have seen in a long time.) Furthermore, we must remember that the biblical imagery of Jesus is multi-faceted. Jesus is both Lion and Lamb, he who died and he who has power over death, he who was born and he who had no beginning, etc. To focus solely on one picture of Jesus is to deny ourself the glory that is the unity of his personhood and his deity. Even things that appear to be simple, like saying that Jesus came not to fight but to die, are very complex, for we say to little if we say only this. In his act of surrender to the Jews and the Romans, was Jesus not fighting against spiritual powers? We miss much of the glory of the cross if we do not realize how in control of the events Jesus actually was, and that the victory, and yes, note the word, victory, over sin and death and Satan was both intentional, planned, and strategic. The Gospels are replete with stories of Jesus conquering demons and sin.

Lastly, I would like to make a further suggestion to the Halo-Bible metaphor. As I was reading all of your posts, it occurred to me that the most probable reference for the metaphor of the Forerunners may be Adam and Eve, in that the Forerunners, from what I can gather, are the precursors to life as it is currently known and are also responsible for the Halos which may bring about the end-of-the-world, just as Adam and Eve are precursors to life as we know it and are also responsible for sin and death, which will ultimately bring about the end-of-the-world.

Please excuse anything you may find offensive. These are some off-the-cuff comments by a theologian in training who also enjoys the frequent distraction of video games, sci-fi, and fantasy.

Edited by Mike, 26 April 2007 - 10:39 PM.


#48 vociferous

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 05:16 AM

I think when you talk about religion and Halo, you have to be extremely careful. There shouldn't be a debate about things which we can't prove one way or another, so unless Joe Staten joins the forum and gives us the 411, we're all speculating. Glad to see this issue resolved itself, but everyone needs to keep the name calling and use of terms like "retarded" and "dick" when speaking about other members and/or their ideas in other forums. This goes for new and old people alike.

#49 mattacus

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 05:29 AM

[E]veryone needs to keep the name calling and use of terms like "retarded" and "dick" when speaking about other members and/or their ideas in other forums. This goes for new and old people alike.


Yeah, you jerks know who you are.

/Thanks Mike. That was refreshing.

#50 Blamo

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 07:00 AM

Voc's name is Mike?
Spoiler


#51 Blaze

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 07:58 AM

No.

#52 Mike

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 08:04 AM

I think when you talk about religion and Halo, you have to be extremely careful. There shouldn't be a debate about things which we can't prove one way or another, so unless Joe Staten joins the forum and gives us the 411, we're all speculating.


I can appreciate this sentiment, but it seems rather that precisely because Joe Staten (and I'm not sure who this is, but I assume he is intricately involved in the making of Halo because of the way you used his name) has not joined this forum, we are forced to debate. If you can only debate about things which can be proved, there would be no need for debate in the first place. Sure, we must resign ourselves to that fact that we may never know for certain that we are correct, nor be able to completely sway those who views are different, but precisely because there is no definite answer we should debate and discuss and each of us come to our own opinions based upon what seems most rational and likely.

#53 mattacus

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 08:23 AM

Indeed, even when evidence is dispositive on a topic, there is still plenty of room for debate.

#54 NJ Shlice

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 09:37 AM

First off Mike welcome and that was a great write-up.

It is my mistake to only look at Jesus in the sense of "Sacrificial Lamb" and not look deeper in to the Lion aspect of him. As I do know how ugly the End Times will be and how not-lamb-like He will be. But I was looking at Jesus in the way, like you mentioned, that he is all embedded into our minds. As a Savior, one who came and died. Did not fight. Looking at Jesus in that way I see no connection to Master Chief, but maybe I am not giving Bungie enough credit. Maybe the creator of this halo sotry looked into Jesus Christ much deeper than just how he acted when he came to Earth. You make a very good point. Thank you.

Almost all of NT Theology rests here, in the overlap of the ages, in the continuity and discontinuity of the Old Covenant and the New, and the tension and war that rages on not only in the individual but in society and the world as a whole. Applying this to the Halo story, the war between the Covenant and Earth (or the Chief) appears to point to the idea that this war is largely ideological, that is, between truth (about the true purpose of the Halos) and a strict legalism, or a strict devotion to a misunderstanding of a Covenant.


This is where we would be referring to the remaining Disciples after Jesus died. Because it was on their hands that the truth was to be carried out. So I agree that you now had society (who followed Moses' law) vs. the disciples who's job it was to bring the new Covenant, the new Truth to everyone. As we compare that to Halo, Are you proposing that Earth is more of the Old Covenant believers and the alien race the Covenant are the disciples bring the new truth?? the truth of what the rings really do??

I would love for you to elaborate on that because it seems very very very interesting.


About your Adam and Eve:
Let's try to run with that because we might make something out of it. The main thing in Halo, Mike, is that the Forerunners CREATED something that would bring destruction to the end of the world. But we are led to beleive tha they created something to help them (study flood) but it could also be used to end the world.

Forerunners created Gravemind
Adam and Eve created/cause death by eating from Tree

??

#55 mattacus

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 01:02 PM

I was talking with my wife about the Christ-MC connection. And I noted to her that it didn't work completely, because during his mortal ministry, Christ was the Sacrificial Lamb. He doesn't take on the Lion of the Tribe of Judah role until post Resurrection. At which point Amanda says, what about the beginning of the first game, "Sorry for the quick thaw, Master Chief." He's been in stasis in a box that looks very much like a coffin. Not only did she quote it verbatim, but she hit on a point: MC has already risen from the grave, as it were. Bungie has moved the Christ Figure motif beyond the old and busted version that all of Western Literature has been employing for centuries, and gone straight to the Ass-Kicking Resurrected side of the story that other tales don't ever mention. It's actually quite revolutionary. The Arbiter, also, has already been crucified (see the scene where he is stripped and tortured) and returned in a different state. So, technically, to fulfill the motif, neither needs to die. Just Cortana. She's
Spoiler


#56 Blamo

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 03:44 PM

My bad, I didn't see Mike there. Welcome and I love the sophistication of you're posts.

#57 Mike

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 04:41 PM

This is where we would be referring to the remaining Disciples after Jesus died. Because it was on their hands that the truth was to be carried out. So I agree that you now had society (who followed Moses' law) vs. the disciples who's job it was to bring the new Covenant, the new Truth to everyone. As we compare that to Halo, Are you proposing that Earth is more of the Old Covenant believers and the alien race the Covenant are the disciples bring the new truth?? the truth of what the rings really do??
I would love for you to elaborate on that because it seems very very very interesting.


Actually NJ x Falk0r, I intended to say the opposite, although often what we intend to communicate and what we actually communicate are by no means identical. It seems to be that the Covenants strict devotion to detonate the Halos and their desire to incorporate or destroy those who do not follow their Covenant identify them more with the legalist/Pharasaical/Judaizers of the NT. The truth of the Halo story, in so far as I am aware, is that the rings do not lead to life, but death, just as Paul argues regarding following the Mosaic Law. It is the Chief and Cortana (and others in the story I presume) who know that the Halos do not lead to life but lead to death. In many ways the war against the Covenant is not only a war against them, but also to save them from the inevitable death that results from the covenant they follow. I hope this clears up my intentions, and thanks to you and the others for welcoming me to the forum (and hopefully the Clan sometime soon).

#58 mattacus

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 05:29 PM

and thanks to you and the others for welcoming me to the forum (and hopefully the Clan sometime soon).


You can't be too bad a guy if your gamerpic is a Chocobo...

#59 Poe Ghostal

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 10:20 AM

Can I change the topic to "Does the Ark lead to a Dyson Sphere like Onyx" for a while?

In Ghosts of Onyx it's suggested that the interior "world" of Onyx exists in a kind of Slipspace sub-dimension (since it's a full-sized Dyson Sphere). And what with the Biblical reference, I think it would make a lot of sense if the Ark were actually the world where Blue Team (led by Fred) is right now. The Ark on Earth may just be the "primary entrance" to this Slipspace sub-dimension, while "Shield Worlds" like Onyx represent other entrances. Presumably there would be at least one entrance near each Halo, so that all the Forerunners everywhere could get away.

So, in theory, if and when the Master Chief hops into the Ark, he could run into Fred, Kelly, Linda, Dr. Halsey and the Spartan-IIIs.

That said, I don't think it'll happen. Very little of what's in the novels has appeared in the game; you don't really gain any insight into Halo 2 by having read First Strike, since none of the novel's events are referenced in any way. I'm pretty sure none of the aforementioned novel characters will appear in Halo 3. Just the usual suspects (MC, Cortana, Johnson, Arbiter, Lord Hood, Prophet of Truth, Miranda Keyes) and maybe a few new characters.

Also, to clarify, my impression wasn't that the Slipspace Dyson Sphere was "inside" Onyx. Rather, the structure inside Onyx was more of a "portal" to the Slipspace Sphere, which may or may not exist in the same general space as Onyx. It's possible the Ark works the same way.

The impression I've gotten from the overall Halo storyline is that each Halo installation had its own batch of Flood for study. If they got out, then the Forerunner/Reclaimer was to fire that one Halo ring for that area of the galaxy, and that would be that.

The only reason you'd need to fire ALL the Halo rings would be if one of the rings failed to fire, meaning the Flood could potentially be spreading across the entire galaxy. The only way to make sure the galaxy was wiped clean of Flood would be to fire all the remaining Halos, which probably have overlapping pulse ranges and can ensure the area of the installation(s) that were incapacitated is also covered.

As for why all the Halos didn't kick on when the Master Chief blew up the first Halo, perhaps the method by which it was stopped--destruction--meant the installation didn't have time to send out an SOS to the other Halos. Delta Halo, on the other hand, was able to emit a signal because it wasn't destroyed, just shut down--similar to how Windows emails an error message to Microsoft when a program fails.

And then, presumably, you can only fire (or perhaps only stop?) the remaining Halos from the Ark.

Over on the Bungie forums, there was an argument about the function of the Ark where many people seemed to believe that all it did was actively the Halos remotely. Why would that be the case? It would perfect sense if the Ark were both a "bunker" (or portal, whatever) to protect the Forerunners from the rings' pulse AND allows them to remotely activate the rings. Similar to, say, a president launching a nuclear attack from a protective bunker a mile beneath Washington.

(And to pre-empt a response, there could be a control panel by which to activate the rings before the Forerunner leaders entered the portal to the Slipspace Sphere.)

In summation, I think the Ark was intended by the Forerunners as one of several "bunkers" to protect a select portion of their population from the effects of the Halo pulse (either by sending them to the Onyx Sphere, or possibly by generating an energy or Slipspace shield around the entire planet Earth). I also think the Halos can be controlled from the Ark.

As for the Forerunners themselves, I'd have a hard time believing they were true humans, since the archaeological and evolutionary records on Earth are obvious.

But they could have been superficially similar humanoids who used the Earth as a bunker because humans were so similar to them, and then, with some minor genetic engineering, could repopulate their species by interbreeding with humans (possibly thus bringing about human sentience).

There's another, much more far-out possibility--that Forerunners are humans from the future who came back and built the Halos, the Ark, Onyx and everything else...perhaps to prevent a future where the Flood have taken over the galaxy.

I do hope Bungie explains this stuff, at least in the novels, if not in the game.

#60 Blamo

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 01:52 PM

On the First level of Halo 2, Lord Hood mentions that the fleet that took down Reach was fifty times the size of the one attacking Earth. Yeah, the Ark is supposed to be like the ark that Noa boarded to escape the Flood. So it is a portal to The dyson sphere. I think.

Edited by Blamo, 28 April 2007 - 01:56 PM.




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