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M6G. Why no M6D?

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#21 ido

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 08:48 AM

Practically everyone who played Halo 1 seriously loved the original pistol and realized that it was not always the weapon of choice. Depending on how good you were, sniper was ALWAYS a better choice. Depending on the level, rockets were better. As with the Shotgun and even the Plasma Rifle. The rest of the weapons were pretty stale, but does that mean guns like the pistol should be nerfed? Why not just IMPROVE the shitty weapons from the first game instead of keeping the same shitty weapons (and even ADDING more shitty weapons) and completely taking the power of the decent weapons away(Rockets and Pistol, which on Halo 2 were completely horrible). I realize I am just speaking for myself, but the people who made Halo so popular enjoyed the way Halo CE played. That included the pistol as it was. Why change a good thing? I have yet to figure out this question.

#22 Syracuse022

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 09:09 AM

but hopefully they nail the core weapon mix. That's what is most important.

Agreed. One thing that I've noticed is that it looks like leading moving and distant targets is much more of a factor once more, at least in the first person sections of the ViDoc. This could be an artifact of the Saved Films function or it could be caused by lag, but if it truly is back in, then the battle rifle (and even more so the carbine) are much more palatable.

Why change a good thing? I have yet to figure out this question.

Me neither. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

#23 ido

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 09:24 AM

Agreed. One thing that I've noticed is that it looks like leading moving and distant targets is much more of a factor once more, at least in the first person sections of the ViDoc. This could be an artifact of the Saved Films function or it could be caused by lag, but if it truly is back in, then the battle rifle (and even more so the carbine) are much more palatable.
Me neither. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


I agree. It is annoying to use the Battle Rifle when your enemy is a hundred yards away and to shoot him while he is running you aim directly at him.

Why couldn't Bungie just leave the good parts of the first game the same(Pistol, Sniper, FOV, Health[debatable], faster walking speed, grenades that actually throw with accuracy and decent distance, fall damage, jumping that DOESN'T seem like you are in the air 10 feet, FAST rockets that don't lock-on, Plasma Rifle that stuns, Shotgun that works, etc, etc) and IMPROVE the shitty weapons. Boggles my mind.

Oh well, I guess I will never "get it." Halo 2, to me, would completely suck without online play. Playing Halo 2 over LAN with your friends would get boring, imo. Halo 1 stood the test of time and remains to be a fun game TO THIS DAY regardless of the fact that it lacks online play(save XBoxconnect)...

#24 phreak

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:27 AM

It will hurt because making Halo 3 still involves basic economics. Limited resources among unlimited wants or needs. Why should they spend one second on a purely optional weapon when they could spend that time doing something else which will make Halo 3 better.


Bungie has massive amounts of resources. Apparently the weapon model for the pistol is already in. I've done some basic game modding. I've modded Halo 2. With the weapon model already in, putting in the right firing attributes on the projectiles should take only a few minutes, literally. Tweaking it might take a bit longer, but it isn't going to take a lot of resources to do this for the fans.

Not to mention that the exact M6D causes all sorts of problems to the game engine, such as incorporating dual-wielding to an incredibly powerful weapon. I personally think the M6D was too powerful and made no sense considering it was a pistol not a rifle. I think the BR has filled the position of that weapon just fine and there's no need for redundancy. The M6G also seems to have taken some nice things we remember about the M6D without all the crap the M6C was.

It doesn't matter if it causes problems to the game engine. It doesn't need to be balanced. It just needs to be int here as an extra. For people who didn't enjoy Halo 1 like others, you just have no idea how important the pistol is to our enjoyment of the game.

I personally won't feel disrespected if the M6D stays in my H1 disc where I like it.


And that's what irks me about people saying 'just go play Halo 1'. Like 'Cuse mentioned, you can't play Halo 1 online, you don't have saved films, you have nothing to do with online.

So Bungie just needs to put that in and let people do whatever they want with it, whether that is ignoring it or loving it.

Edited by jesusphreak, 02 May 2007 - 10:30 AM.


#25 kon3cto

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:28 AM

What the M6D brought to H1 was balance (don't argue, everyone had an equal chance when they were packing the pistol). This is the most important thing to FPS games in my opinion. I won't miss the M6D if Bungie can effectively balance the weapons, which unfortuanetly, they have shown an ineptitude at. Considering that they are adding even more weapons to the mix, my hopes for balance are not high. Put the pistol in, and balance will figure itself out.

#26 MoNuckah

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:44 AM

I just think its great that people are still passionately arguing about a weapon from a game that came out in 2001. Thats how good the M6D was. It was the key to unlocking what was so fundamentally enjoyable about the original game.

#27 mattacus

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:51 AM

I wonder, how many of the guys who made H1 were part of the H2 staff? And many of those H2 guys stuck around for H3?

Edited by mattacus, 02 May 2007 - 10:51 AM.


#28 Jironimo

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:52 AM

List of all redundant things between the BR55 and the M6D:
-they fire bullets
-they have 2x zoom capabilities
You're totally right. I'd love for Bungie to use their man hours for much less redundant things, like Brute Plasma Rifles.

Two human mid-range weapons with 2x scope is redundant. They serve the same purpose in your arsenal except one is more powerful.

The Brute Plasma rifle is in Halo 3? Where'd you see that?


Bungie has massive amounts of resources. Apparently the weapon model for the pistol is already in. I've done some basic game modding. I've modded Halo 2. With the weapon model already in, putting in the right firing attributes on the projectiles should take only a few minutes, literally. Tweaking it might take a bit longer, but it isn't going to take a lot of resources to do this for the fans.

It doesn't matter if it causes problems to the game engine. It doesn't need to be balanced. It just needs to be int here as an extra.

We all know that Bungie has massive amounts of resources, but it doesn't mean they should mis allocate those resources. Yes the model is already in, but as I mentioned before it causes problems against other factors in the rest of the game. Balance doesn't matter you say? What? Isn't that the whole point of having the M6D because people say it's "The Great Equalizer"? How happy are those people who want the powerful balanced M6D gonna be when some nub starts dual-wielding it in your game? You'll get complaints again and Bungie's back where they started. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

What the M6D brought to H1 was balance (don't argue, everyone had an equal chance when they were packing the pistol). This is the most important thing to FPS games in my opinion.

I thought the pistol was too powerful. I swear sometimes even the four-shot BR kill seems like it was only three shots. The pistol would have been balanced if it behaved the same way with a 4/5 shot kill. Even if they do that, some people will be happy and most people will still bitch because it's not EXACTLY the same. You're not gonna please that hardcore group by doing this because they'll find some problem with the implementation in the game. Say they put it in exactly as it was, then the complaint will be that the way it exists in this game engine with those factors isn't like HaloCE so it sucks. Short of you making Halo CE with online play it will never be enough so there's no point in doing it.

#29 mattacus

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:55 AM

You're not gonna please that hardcore group by doing this because they'll find some problem with the implementation in the game. Say they put it in exactly as it was, then the complaint will be that the way it exists in this game engine with those factors isn't like HaloCE so it sucks. Short of you making Halo CE with online play it will never be enough so there's no point in doing it.


And that, my friends, is why Bungie needs to release online-enabled Halo 1 for the XBLA. Dammitall, but I'd pay $50 bucks for that. Even $60.

Forget that Retarded Helmet, If the Legendary Edition was Halo 3 and Halo1 in paper sleeves, I'd pay them their $130.

Edited by mattacus, 02 May 2007 - 10:57 AM.


#30 Jironimo

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 11:01 AM

And that, my friends, is why Bungie needs to release online-enabled Halo 1 for the XBLA. Dammitall, but I'd pay $50 bucks for that. Even $60.

Forget that Retarded Helmet, If the Legendary Edition was Halo 3 and Halo1 in paper sleeves, I'd pay them their $130.

YES, YES, YES! They need to do that. The M6D existed perfectly in that game with those factors and that's where it should stay. I'd pay all kinds of money for an XBLA version of HCE. They would need to leave it EXACTLY as it was though, none of this crap that they do to the retro titles with graphics updates, maybe just have the pregame lobby and menu updated but not the game itself. I honestly believe that if this were to happen, many people would go wild for it and go right back to H3.

#31 Syracuse022

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 11:03 AM

Apparently the weapon model for the pistol is already in. I've done some basic game modding. I've modded Halo 2. With the weapon model already in, putting in the right firing attributes on the projectiles should take only a few minutes, literally.

He's right. Bullet speed, chamber time, damage levels, dual wieldability - all can be changed in seconds within the weapon tags. Clip size can be changed, as well, though they'll need to make a slight modification to the HUD to display 12 bullets instead of 8.

And that's what irks me about people saying 'just go play Halo 1'. Like 'Cuse mentioned, you can't play Halo 1 online, you don't have saved films, you have nothing to do with online.

He... er, I'm right. It's all well and good to say "I personally won't feel disrespected if the M6D stays in my H1 disc where I like it." but the Halo series is growing. New features are being added, the Campaign storyline has progressed, each game has new multiplayer maps. Online play. Saved films. The list goes on. And no M6D. It's still perfect in Halo 1, but that's not the fucking point. I watched as the Halo series got taken online and lost almost every shred of its gameplay identity in the process. I long for a chance to play the Halo that I loved online.

I don't need the M6D in Halo 3 if that's such a fucking problem for Bungie, but if it is such a problem, throw me a bone and get FASA or Hired Gun to crank out an online enabled Halo 1 for Xbox Live Arcade. The multiplayer portion of the game is smaller than 700 MB, less than a typical downloadable movie or demo on the Marketplace, and almost within the existing file size limit for XBLA games. Put out a multiplayer only Halo: Tournament Edition, with online play (Matchmaking/party system included), reworked net code, and Achievements, and I'll leave everyone the hell alone and enjoy myself in peace.

EDIT: Damn you, Mattacus, I was typing a longer proposal.

Edited by Syracuse022, 02 May 2007 - 11:06 AM.


#32 Va1or

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 11:10 AM

Here's my two cents worth. I would love to see the M6D back in all it's alien murdering glory in Campaign. I would also love it to be an optional weapon for customs. In one fell swoop Bungie could solve one of the biggest critiques of Halo 2, especially among the pro crowd. Perhaps the reason Bungie isn't going to do this is because they want people to play Halo 3 primarily the way they designed it. Maybe they don't want the pros and others to always incorporate a weapon into the mix that they feel downgrades the game. Maybe they feel Halo 3 is the best it can be without the M6D and they don't want to dilute it by adding it to customs where it would be sure to be a huge hit. I am glad that Halo 3 doesn't have it as the default spawn weapon though. That said, give me the M6D default any day over the SMG. If you are in a map with SMG starts and the opposing team has captured the BR and sniper, kiss your armored hiney bye-bye. *Spawn* "O, there they are, 30 feet away on the hill! Good thing I've got my SMG cocked locked and ready to rock! O, wait I can't hit them from here with this piece of...RAT-A-TAT... RAT-A-TAT...RAT-A-TAT. *die.* *Spawn.* You need to spawn with something that has balls. The SMG is not that something. Biggest mistake in Halo 2 MP? Maybe. At least in Halo:CE, you could spawn into a fight and win with the M6D. With the SMG you had better know how to dodge and weave until you can make it to another weapon worth a lick. And yes, I know there are some situations in which the SMG is useful. There are also many in which it's garbage. The thing feels more like a squirt gun than a "bullet hose." I know most of you guys agree. We play BR starts for a reason. Anywho, to finish up, I do think the new AR will have more umph than the SMG. We know it has better range and is more lethal. Thank goodness Bungie learned from the SMG mistake.

Edited by Va1or, 02 May 2007 - 11:15 AM.


#33 GhaleonEB

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 12:15 PM

Anywho, to finish up, I do think the new AR will have more umph than the SMG. We know it has better range and is more lethal. Thank goodness Bungie learned from the SMG mistake.

That's what gives me the most hope that they'll get the pistol right in Halo 3. They really seemed to grasp the failings in the weapon balance in Halo 2, and in particular the SMG. (Which is useful in many MP situations, but is a terrible spawn weapon. I remember spawing on Coagulation with one and thinking, what am I supposed to do now? )

#34 Va1or

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 12:24 PM

I remember spawing on Coagulation with one and thinking, what am I supposed to do now?


SMG starts on Coagulation is so wrong it's actually evil.

#35 ido

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 01:42 PM

I need to add one more thing that bugs me about Halo 2. People say the BR is a perfect replacement for the pistol are the same people who claim the pistol was overused. The BR is the replacement, but it fucking sucks. And it didn't really change anything... the better players still stick to one main firearm(BR), so what is the difference? It kills just as quickly as the pistol did because you don't really have to aim very well to hit the person. Not to mention the fact that strafing to dodge bullets in Halo 2 is almost impossible because of how slow you walk and how lame the aiming system is. So, in my opinion, the BR is the same fucking thing the pistol was... except not nearly as fun and requires hardly any skill. In games of Halo 2, the only real usable guns in a game with decent players is the BR and power weapons(Snipers and MAYBE rockets, even though they suck now, too)... Go play a game right now. If it's a BR start, 90% of the people will ONLY use the BR during the game unless they find the sniper. SAME FUCKING THING you people were complaining about happening in Halo 1. Except the MAJOR difference is, in Halo 1 the pistol actually took more skill to use and even hit its target(due to the fact that players moved faster and could actually strafe to avoid being shot) ... I promise you it is easier to get a 4-shot BR kill than a 3-shot pistol kill when playing against decent players. So the argument is weak to those who say the BR is the "perfect replacement" ... NO IT IS NOT. IT SUCKS AND IT IS HARDLY ANY FUN. Just bring back the damn pistol so we can all have fun.

#36 vociferous

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 02:03 PM

I need to add one more thing that bugs me about Halo 2.

People say the BR is a perfect replacement for the pistol are the same people who claim the pistol was overused.

The BR is the replacement, but it fucking sucks. And it didn't really change anything... the better players still stick to one main firearm(BR), so what is the difference? It kills just as quickly as the pistol did because you don't really have to aim very well to hit the person. Not to mention the fact that strafing to dodge bullets in Halo 2 is almost impossible because of how slow you walk and how lame the aiming system is.

So, in my opinion, the BR is the same fucking thing the pistol was... except not nearly as fun and requires hardly any skill. In games of Halo 2, the only real usable guns in a game with decent players is the BR and power weapons(Snipers and MAYBE rockets, even though they suck now, too)... Go play a game right now. If it's a BR start, 90% of the people will ONLY use the BR during the game unless they find the sniper. SAME FUCKING THING you people were complaining about happening in Halo 1.

Except the MAJOR difference is, in Halo 1 the pistol actually took more skill to use and even hit its target(due to the fact that players moved faster and could actually strafe to avoid being shot) ... I promise you it is easier to get a 4-shot BR kill than a 3-shot pistol kill when playing against decent players. So the argument is weak to those who say the BR is the "perfect replacement" ... NO IT IS NOT. IT SUCKS AND IT IS HARDLY ANY FUN.

Just bring back the damn pistol so we can all have fun.

Take it easy, dude. I'm sure you're not alone in your argument, but no one said anything about your mother. We're all friends here.

#37 ido

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 02:28 PM

Take it easy, dude. I'm sure you're not alone in your argument, but no one said anything about your mother. We're all friends here.


Grin. I am not angry at anyone HERE. I like it here.

#38 Nightshade

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 02:35 PM

Yeah this is a froum, not a vent, settle down. As for saying it's easier to get a kill with the battle rifle, thats debateable. Since in Halo: Combat Evolved by the time you were able to strafe you had already been hit by the second shot. Leaving you absolutely no chance to fight back. It my case it was always the person who shot first would win. It was like 60% of the time, everytime.

#39 Blaze

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 02:42 PM

Yeah this is a froum, not a vent, settle down. As for saying it's easier to get a kill with the battle rifle, thats debateable. Since in Halo: Combat Evolved by the time you were able to strafe you had already been hit by the second shot. Leaving you absolutely no chance to fight back. It my case it was always the person who shot first would win. It was like 60% of the time, everytime.

What? That's exactly how Halo 2 works with the Battle Rifle. Whoever fires first is going to win 80% of the time, everytime. In Halo 1, a skilled player could strafe, dodge, dip, dive, duck, or dodge and then three-shot kill you before you have a chance to hit him a third time.

Ido, read the avatar rules.

#40 Nightshade

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 02:57 PM

What? That's exactly how Halo 2 works with the Battle Rifle. Whoever fires first is going to win 80% of the time, everytime. In Halo 1, a skilled player could strafe, dodge, dip, dive, duck, or dodge and then three-shot kill you before you have a chance to hit him a third time.

Ido, read the avatar rules.

Well maybe by your standards I wasen't a truely "skilled" player. And I wasen't talking about your matches, pros matches, or anyone other than myself. I talked only on MY behalf and thats how it happened for me. Just like I said with the only weapons being used were pistol, sniper, and rockets. And anyone not using one of the three was penalized for doing so by death because these three over powered them all. This is what happened to me, I don't care about what happened to anyone else, or these so-called "Skilled players". I was explaining MY reason for hating the M6D pistol.



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