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M6G. Why no M6D?

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#41 phreak

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 03:14 PM

What? That's exactly how Halo 2 works with the Battle Rifle. Whoever fires first is going to win 80% of the time, everytime. In Halo 1, a skilled player could strafe, dodge, dip, dive, duck, or dodge and then three-shot kill you before you have a chance to hit him a third time.

Ido, read the avatar rules.


As a matter of fact, I'm going to suggest that the BR is even worse for balance than the Halo 1 pistol. You don't notice it because of the importance of super weapons in H2, but anyway...

I can't explain why but I have an absolutely terrible time with BR. I'm too twitchy or something, but it is damn near impossible for me to get 4 head shots while the other person is strafing or moving. I just can't do it. On the other hand, certain players like Gamble are extremely good at it. So there's a lot of situations where I will get the first shot off, but I miss one of them, and I get hit 4 times in a row; then I'm dead. I didn't have these problems with the Halo 1 pistol. I only had to make the shot 3 times; and it leveled out the playing field for me.

So you end up in a situation where the BR only compounds the issue with skilled players even more than the pistol did, and it isn't even a satisfying weapon to use; it feels relatively weak. Essentially you have a watered down weapon (the BR) that Bungie inserted to make the game slightly easier, and it only has made things worse.

But again, most people don't notice this so much because the real difference between Halo 1 and Halo 2 is that in H2 the power weapons are a lot more powerful than they were in Halo 1. So people get tagged by sniper, rockets, and sword, and don't realize that the BR is just a lamer pistol.

The pistol was just such a satisfying weapon. It sat in the middle of the screen, it had that perfect recoil action after each shot, just enough knockdown power. I don't care if it wasn't realistic that a pistol was so that powerful; Halo is a sci-fi game anyway. Now we have the BR which has that dumb buzzing sound, doesn't feel like a rifle should, and is overall pretty boring. Woo.

Edited by jesusphreak, 02 May 2007 - 03:18 PM.


#42 Nightshade

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 03:42 PM

People always like the weapon they are better with. Thats the root of this problem, people that were better at Halo: Combat Evloved HATE Halo 2. Not all people liked the pistol, thats why the change for Halo 2 was made.

#43 Syracuse022

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 03:50 PM

People always like the weapon they are better with.

Wrong. Everyone's better with the battle rifle. In Halo 2... gun aims you!

#44 Nightshade

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 03:52 PM

Wrong. Everyone's better with the battle rifle. In Halo 2... gun aims you!

Please explain further into why I am wrong. Also, nice Yackov reference.

#45 Blamo

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 04:45 PM

halo required more skill to play. halo 2 has too much of an auto-aim, which requires less skill.

#46 Nightshade

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 04:50 PM

There is no doubt about that, Halo 2 had far more auto aim. But then again, you had to hit a person four times insted of three.

#47 Blamo

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 05:06 PM

...with auto aim.

#48 vociferous

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 05:26 PM

It's tough to say how much skill Halo 1 really required because everyone here played in their own little fishbowl microcosm. Yeah, we were king shit on turd island, but the island has a net population of 20 people and almost all of them sucked at Halo.

#49 SharpeWolfe

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 05:54 PM

Yeah, I never really fell in love with the M6D because the only people I ever played with were my sister, dad and a couple friends who never bothered to use it either. No matter what Bungie decides to do, there are going to be people who are upset, that's an unavoidable fact. I think we need to just take a break from this discussion because of all the emotional baggage it carries. Let's wait until after the beta to start it up again, since we'll have a better idea of how the M6G plays in the online community.
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#50 Syracuse022

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 05:57 PM

It's tough to say how much skill Halo 1 really required because everyone here played in their own little fishbowl microcosm. Yeah, we were king shit on turd island, but the island has a net population of 20 people and almost all of them sucked at Halo.

Some people here went to tournaments and played with some incredible players over XBC in the middle of competitive H1's prime.

*Played with - v. "were raped by" or "got owned by"

EDIT: In addition, I was not King Shit on Turd Island at LANs either. One of the kids I played with was straight up pro material and was much better than I. Another was a much better straight slayer (but I beat him in 1 v 1's all the time). Three or four others were almost as good as I was, and were probably better objective players. That was the competitive group. Yeah, I lanned with shitty kids also, but King Shit on Turd Island? Come on. Why did the other 9 people keep coming back, then, if the only people who enjoyed Halo 1 were the people who were the best in their group? Your logic is way off here in another respect: we've all played Halo 2 online now. We know what makes a skillful player. Even the most die-hard Halo 2 lovers can recognize that things like auto aim and homing rockets require much less skill - you yourself have admitted this a number of times, most recently in WWVD.

Edited by Syracuse022, 02 May 2007 - 06:07 PM.


#51 Nightshade

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 06:02 PM

More people didin't go to tournaments, than the ones that did.

#52 ido

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 06:13 PM

What? That's exactly how Halo 2 works with the Battle Rifle. Whoever fires first is going to win 80% of the time, everytime. In Halo 1, a skilled player could strafe, dodge, dip, dive, duck, or dodge and then three-shot kill you before you have a chance to hit him a third time.

Ido, read the avatar rules.


I agree. Completely. BR and Pistol are the same... except one takes more skill to use, imo.

Thanks for the avatar info... that was completely my fault.

#53 mattacus

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 06:14 PM

Well maybe by your standards I wasen't a truely "skilled" player. And I wasen't talking about your matches, pros matches, or anyone other than myself. I talked only on MY behalf and thats how it happened for me. Just like I said with the only weapons being used were pistol, sniper, and rockets. And anyone not using one of the three was penalized for doing so by death because these three over powered them all. This is what happened to me, I don't care about what happened to anyone else, or these so-called "Skilled players". I was explaining MY reason for hating the M6D pistol.


Untrue. In OG Halo, if you met me in a mid-sized to small space with your pistol and my plasma rifle, your ass was frozen while I strafed in close enough for the beat down. Unpredictable movement and AR fire was disorienting enough to your opponent to take him down when met head on. Even if he got the drop on you, if you were as good with your left hand (maneuvering) as you were with your right, then it was still a fair game.

If you were up against a sniper or a rocket and had the pistol, you had a chance. Even when no other weapon could help you. That's what makes the pistol so great: it can counter the most powerful weapons in the game, yet it isn't, itself, all powerful.

You weren't penalized because of some inherent flaw in the big three weapons of H1. You were penalized for playing against "lan bosses" who were out of your league. It's nothing to be ashamed of. I've been on the receiving end of many such an ass-kicking.

EDIT: I used to be king shit on turd island. I only ever met one guy at byu (before Van) that ever even posted a hint of challenge. This dude was the first to use the pistol on me (back when Halo was new). Turned out, he played all the time. And I thought, "Certainly, the special brand of loser who has so much time that he can play that many hours of Halo daily must be unique." Then I came online and met all you guys.

:laugh:

Edited by mattacus, 02 May 2007 - 06:21 PM.


#54 Syracuse022

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 06:20 PM

More people didin't go to tournaments, than the ones that did.

But this one did, and he was responding to this:

It's tough to say how much skill Halo 1 really required because everyone here played in their own little fishbowl microcosm.

An argument that doesn't make sense in light of the fact that we've all played eachother on Xbox Live in a number of competitive multiplayer games for years now. We know what elements are present in games that require skill. Even Voc, much as he is pretending not to at this moment. Examples, gathered from here:

2) If the M6D returns, it shouldn't be a common weapon and it shouldn't be neutered. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with it returning and, I could definitely see myself (if I was running things) puting it back into the game with the same strength and power of Halo 1, but this time, I would make it a "power weapon" and put it in the center of the map. Force the people who love it so much to work and fight for it at the start of each round. In their own free time, if they wanted to play with only M6D's, they could (I personally wouldn't, but that's just me). What I would not do, is introduce another nerfed version of the hand gun to further piss off players who already want to have the original's babies.

Doesn't seem all that different from making it a togglable option for custom games, does it? Certainly sounds different from the tune he's currently singing...

3) I would alter the "noob attributes" of some of the weapons/features of multiplayer. It was understandable, when they first built Halo 2 for online purposes, that they would try to give players a little assistance transitioning from the practically lag-less LANs to an infantile network code which was to support all of the world's various internet connections on Xbox Live. These elements ranged everywhere from the despised lunge attack during melees with regular weapons, the excessive auto-aim/aim assist/oversized hit boxes of Halo 2 compared to Halo 1, and the thoroughly frustrating homing mechanism associated with the rocket launcher and the overpowered one for the plasma pistol.

Would I take these out completely? No, I fully recognize the necessity for these in online play as I've seen other similar-styled games struggle without them, so I believe that it would be a mistake to completely remove these items. I do believe that the lunge feature should be more consistent and toned down (probably somewhere between no Halo 1 and Halo 2); they should also take the aim assit feature all the way down to its original Halo 1 roots. The hit boxes and auto-aim used in Halo 2 are quite excessive and should be altered to better reflect a requirement for more accurate shooting. Meaning: let's make the hit boxes smaller and the auto-aim less dishonest.

I would defintely gut the rocket launcher and turn that weapon into a SAM (surface-to-air) launcher rather than a SSM (surface-to-surface) launcher, only allowing it to home in on aerial vehicles. The plasma pistol can still retain its shield stopping power, but the homing attributes should be lowered considerably and I would insert a recoil period after the weapon is fired so that it can't be easily changed to another weapon by players who apparently forget there are other weapons in the game besides the BR/PP combo.

Oh yeah, while I'm on the subject: I would definitely put a battery cell on the energy sword (and potentially the hammer, depending on how it's implemented) to prevent a player from abusing it the entire length of the round.

Hmm... discussions of restoring skill demanding attributes to weapons?

5) I would remove the useless and redundant weapons. One thing Gears of War does really well is create a situation where any weapon in the hands of any person can actually be potent. It's true that some are "weaker" than others, but the range between the weapons with power and the ones without is far more narrow than the one in Halo 2, which is comparably like a gaping chasm.

For examples of this phenomenon in action, see: Halo 1. Except the needler. Even the plasma pistol freezes, and I've seen Zyos take out a pistol wielding adversary with just the plasma pistol. God damn, his trigger finger with that thing was lightning quick.

#55 Nightshade

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 07:32 PM

Untrue. In OG Halo, if you met me in a mid-sized to small space with your pistol and my plasma rifle, your ass was frozen while I strafed in close enough for the beat down. Unpredictable movement and AR fire was disorienting enough to your opponent to take him down when met head on. Even if he got the drop on you, if you were as good with your left hand (maneuvering) as you were with your right, then it was still a fair game.

If you were up against a sniper or a rocket and had the pistol, you had a chance. Even when no other weapon could help you. That's what makes the pistol so great: it can counter the most powerful weapons in the game, yet it isn't, itself, all powerful.

You weren't penalized because of some inherent flaw in the big three weapons of H1. You were penalized for playing against "lan bosses" who were out of your league. It's nothing to be ashamed of. I've been on the receiving end of many such an ass-kicking.

EDIT: I used to be king shit on turd island. I only ever met one guy at byu (before Van) that ever even posted a hint of challenge. This dude was the first to use the pistol on me (back when Halo was new). Turned out, he played all the time. And I thought, "Certainly, the special brand of loser who has so much time that he can play that many hours of Halo daily must be unique." Then I came online and met all you guys.

:laugh:


Once again read the last two senteces. Here they are for you again and I quote,

"This is what happened to me, I don't care about what happened to anyone else, or these so-called "Skilled players". I was explaining MY reason for hating the M6D pistol."

EDIT: It's not like any of this matters. There is nothing anyone can say to me about the M6D thats going to make me think, "Boy, thats a good point, I love the M6D now!1!121!!1!111." It's all pointless, we all have a diffrence in oppinion, thats just the way it is. It's why forums exist, so with that, I take my leave.

Edited by Nightshade, 02 May 2007 - 07:42 PM.


#56 mattacus

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 07:44 PM

Once again, these sentences are for you:

You weren't penalized because of some inherent flaw in the big three weapons of H1. You were penalized for playing against "lan bosses" who were out of your league. It's nothing to be ashamed of. I've been on the receiving end of many such an ass-kicking.


I was explaining how your experience had nothing to do with the pistol or any weapons balance issues. It didn't have anything to do, directly, with "skilled players," merely your own skill level relative to the socially dead nerds against whom you chose to play.

/don't hate the game. Hate the other players.

#57 mattacus

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 07:49 PM

EDIT: It's not like any of this matters. There is nothing anyone can say to me about the M6D thats going to make me think, "Boy, thats a good point, I love the M6D now!1!121!!1!111." It's all pointless, we all have a diffrence in oppinion, thats just the way it is. It's why forums exist, so with that, I take my leave.


Wow, and all this time I thought that online forums were for level and objective exchanges of ideas for the edification and benefit of all involved.

My bad.

#58 Drew

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 08:45 PM

Jesus Christ, guys.

It's not really THAT big of a deal, is it? It's like we're fighting over who's kid it really is.

It shouldn't, and won't, matter if it makes it into the game or not.

#59 phreak

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:06 PM

Jesus Christ, guys.

It's not really THAT big of a deal, is it? It's like we're fighting over who's kid it really is.

It shouldn't, and won't, matter if it makes it into the game or not.


Taking it to personal levels is silly, thankfully there isn't too much of that in this thread.

On the other hand, for people who didn't enjoy the pistol in Halo 1, it is very hard to understand just how important it is to some people. For me and others the pistol made Halo 1 the best FPS game we've every played. Not only was the weapon just right, but the way it fit into the game gave the game some very unique dynamics.

And that's why I don't think the M6G is going to make any of those fans happy. It'll make fans that don't 'get' the Halo 1 pistol happy, but it isn't going to satisfy the people who really are doing the complaining.

So it does matter on some level (we are all fans of the series), and that's why I wish Bungie would stop being stubborn, stop trying to control exactly how people play their game, and just put it in there as an option.

The closest anyone has gotten to saying how it could be a bad thing is Jironimo making the point that it could be a waste of resources, but again, as anyone who has modded before knows, changing weapon attributes can take seconds (and this is without the professional tools Bungie has). Putting it in could only be a bonus, not a bad thing. Keeping it out could (as silly as it might seem to some) really hinder how much some people enjoy the game.

It is the last game in the series and Bungie needs to be throwing everything they've got at this to make it enjoyable to as many fans of the series as possible.

Edited by jesusphreak, 02 May 2007 - 10:10 PM.


#60 h00ters11

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 10:22 PM

"One of the kids I played with was straight up pro material and was much better than I." He's talking about me... and I seriously doubt that anyone (Jesusphreak) could consistently kill someone with the D pistol in 3 shots, and struggle with the BR. I'm fine with the G though, better than nothing.
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