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#1 Syracuse022

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 12:13 AM

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They're almost here. And I called a lot of the changes. Some I wasn't expecting though...
(Excerpts from this interview, with the man behind the gametypes for all 3 Halo games)

Some players might see the changes as being especially significant while others might not. For players that haven't been involved in testing for version 2, it might take a few games to learn all of the weapon and grenade spawns and to get used to the speed of the game and the power of the weapons. For now, equipment is still not a part of the MLG settings. We see the equipment as taking away from shooting skill and grenade precision, which have always been central to success in competitive Halo.

Things that stand out:
1) Weapon spawns changed (see below for more information)
2) 110 percent speed
3) They've modified damage and shield regeneration speed
For the record, anyone who's played my gametypes in the last two-three weeks has played early forms of the new gametypes and maps.

Shield doors encourage camping and can make leads insurmountable. They can work well in custom or Matchmaking games, but can hinder tournament competition, especially if money is on the line. We have yet to find a way of neutralizing the difficulties they introduce. Therefore, maps that feature shield doors like Snowbound and Epitaph are not included in the list of MLG game types.

Yeah, those maps suck.

For Version 2 we have modified Base Player Traits like Player Speed, Damage Resistance, and Damage Modifier. I'm very happy with the effect these changes have had on game play. So, there won't be any more tinkering with that facet of the MLG settings, for now. Of course, if Bungie were to release an update that changed the default damage that certain weapons deal, it would be back to the drawing board. I see the gravity setting as one that played an integral part in the construction of the Halo 3 maps and any change to it would have a significant impact on the accessibility of certain areas of maps.

Confirmation. I called speed, but I wasn't as certain that they'd mess with the other stuff. It will be interesting to see how the game plays with the changes...

Custom power ups is probably one of the most undervalued additions to the Halo 3 settings list. We have come up with some crazy ideas, most of which don't belong in competitive Halo. For now, the only custom power up that version 2 will see is a more powerful overshield, similar to that of Halo 2.

I wonder if they'll stick with 5 seconds or if they stumbled upon the trick that I did, which shortens the invulnerability time... In retrospect, I probably should have posted that on the MLG forums, as it (in my opinion) is a great enhancement and something that they should look into for their games.

My strategy for changing spawn points is to minimize spawn camping, allow for living players to remain in a position of power, and to give living players easier access to power ups and power weapons than their spawning opponents. This means moving spawns so that players don't spawn under fire, so that players can't get the immediate jump on a player who was holding a power weapon or power position, and so that players don't spawn on top of power ups and power weapons. I think our efforts will improve competitive play, however, we might not be able to truly tackle the spawn system until version 3.

I'm glad they're less skittish about this than we are. Some of the maps have downright broken spawn systems.

Many thanks to Nexy and Killa KC for their tireless work on Version 2 and to all those players who helped in testing. Finally, keep practicing because Halo 3 is a whole new ballgame and anyone can go Pro.

Yeah, so those maps we've been playing when I'm party leader, those are the predecessors for these final maps. I can't help it: I told you so. People who cry when they can't dual wield are going to be very upset. However, fans of any combination of the following:
  • ARs
  • Carbines
  • Halo 1 weapon timing
  • beam rifles on Narrows (in order to prevent ammo stacking)
  • the removal of the damned hammer on Guardian
  • Cusestruct's teleporter
  • plasma grenades in place of spikes
will be happy with the changes.

I'm one of those people. Very excite!

#2 DualX

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 12:34 AM

Very excite!

Great success!

I can't wait to see how they use the spawns. I also want to see what they do with the new maps, especially Foundry.

#3 Drew

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 01:20 AM

A lot of the changes look pretty solid, but am I right in understanding that they're intentionally making it more difficult to unseat people holding power weapons and spawning players away from them (the weapons)? WTF?

#4 mattacus

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 04:39 AM

That would make sense if the current system allows power-weapon holders to be too easily unseated.

#5 Va1or

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 08:05 AM

[*]ARs
[*]Carbines
[*]Halo 1 weapon timing
[*]beam rifles on Narrows (in order to prevent ammo stacking)
[*]the removal of the damned hammer on Guardian
[*]Cusestruct's teleporter
[*]plasma grenades in place of spikes

Are spikes replaced because they are too easy to stick someone with or because they don't like the conical damage? Also, Cocop pointed out to me that if you look at the image of Construct Bungie has in the map selection screen you can see a teleporter. It's under sword spawn on the middle level.

#6 Vanwadilion

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 09:33 AM

Why exactly did they mess with speed and the damage/shield?

#7 Syracuse022

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 10:38 AM

Are spikes replaced because they are too easy to stick someone with or because they don't like the conical damage? Also, Cocop pointed out to me that if you look at the image of Construct Bungie has in the map selection screen you can see a teleporter. It's under sword spawn on the middle level.

If you look at your, my, and Ogre 2's weapon kill ratios, you'll see that spike grenades play a considerably smaller role, not because they're not necessarily effective, but mostly because their deployment feels a little bit less scientific and precise. There are a number of maps that have no plasmas and a ton of spikes (High Ground, Last Resort, Isolation), and yet plasmas account for a great deal more kills in each of our service records. I think the main point of the switch (if they go through with it, which seems likely) is the fact that the combination of plasmas and frags can fulfill every purpose the spike grenade would, without adding unnecessary complication. The plasma connection is clear (sticks). Ostensibly, spike grenades set themselves apart, then, by allowing you to leave traps in your wake (by attaching them to walls). Well, bouncing a frag cleverly off of any of a number of walls fulfills the same purpose and is a lot more predictable. Either play will get the same "Oh man, that was skillful - he just pulled that kill out of nowhere" reaction, but one of them is already in the Halo gamer's skill set, and the other still feels a bit off.

Why exactly did they mess with speed and the damage/shield?

Speed: Default speed is just a tad too slow for effective strafing. Try playing a few games at 110 percent: it still feels smooth and responsive, but your strafes don't feel like you're wading through molasses.
Damage: To make the carbine more of a factor. There are tweaks you can make to damage that maintain things like two melee kills, battle rifle 4 shot kills, etc., but make the carbine kill in fewer shots, making it more of a factor. As you well know from watching VoD, the pros love their carbine, and if the hype is to be believed, the MLG version may feel more like the beast from the beta.

#8 NJ Shlice

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 10:57 AM

I think what they're doing is stupid. I understand that they've been very successful with Halo 1 and 2 and they don't want to ruin that. But I think you are doing Halo 3 a disservice to remove everything that makes Halo 3...well, Halo 3. What happened to adapting to the changes of a newer game? So now the top 3 teams will stay the top 3 teams (or 2 teams. FB & Carbon) and everyone else will just suck at MLG because they can't shoot. I was excited to see how the pros were going to use equipment, spike grenades, etc. Oh Well.

Edited by NJ x Falk0r, 20 November 2007 - 10:59 AM.


#9 mattacus

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 11:01 AM

I think equipment could really make a difference. Other than the sound as it swishes behind you, spike grenades are kinda useless. But the increased speed is a necessity. If you can't shoot well, you really have no business competing professionally in an FPS.

#10 NJ Shlice

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 11:08 AM

I think equipment could really make a difference. Other than the sound as it swishes behind you, spike grenades are kinda useless. But the increased speed is a necessity. If you can't shoot well, you really have no business competing professionally in an FPS.


Of course shooting well is crucial, but when everyone shoots well, strategy and team work is your next advantage. And strategy is not very far beneath shooting on the Importance Meter. As you see on VoD they rarely come across eachother and engage in full battles, everyone is hitting everyone from all parts of the map. Most of them are just Finishing kills.

Equipment adds to said Strategy aspect of the game and makes it more competitive.


The bottom line with Equipment is this: In Halo 3 you die so much that you rarely deploy the Equipment in a favorable manor since you usually die with it or just waste it because you know you're going to die within' 30-40 seconds.

#11 Blaze

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 11:12 AM

So does this mean we're going to have to play MLG gametypes/maps all the time now? Because I really dislike the altered player traits and the lack of equipment and spike grenades. Player respawns and weapon layouts are an okay change to adapt to, but if we have to play with faster speed and more weapon damage, it's going to get really frustrating and disorienting going between customs and the default game settings in Matchmaking. Maybe I'm biased because I don't like MLG, but I think it would be better if we altered the MLG maps to include equipment where necessary, since it's basically the fourth leg of the tripod (quadpod lolz) in Halo 3, and I don't think the game should be without it.

#12 Drew

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 11:18 AM

I'm with the avatarily challenged on this one. I think modifying player traits and weapon damage is one step too far over the line. If the MLG wants to live in their own little world, that's fine by me, but they can keep me the hell out. I think most of our current ASC stuff is fine. I like slight modification of equipment and power up placement. I like the alternative spawns. That's all fine and dandy, but when you start modifying stuff that fundamentally changes the gameplay, you start running into problems.

Edited by Drew, 20 November 2007 - 11:19 AM.


#13 Syracuse022

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 11:22 AM

I think what they're doing is stupid.

Do you like having one BR and one Carbine on Guardian, while at the same time having MORE Maulers than there are ranged weapons on the entire map? Guardian in Matchmaking makes me cry a little bit inside, but Guardian v4 (by Killa KC, who's been working on these final maps) makes me feel all warm inside, with Carbines to spare and no silly Hammer in sight. Some of the most fun games I've had have been MLG TS on Guardian, but when that map gets chosen by Matchmaking, all I want to do is go and hide where the bee-line kamikaze Mauler fiends won't find me. However, MLG can't please everyone, and you can still play with Maulers in Matchmaking.

When we were discussing the changes before, I thought I made it clear that it was in MLG's best interest to keep the top teams on top, but you might not have been in the room at the time. They're all under contract for a lot of money... Just so you know, I've made similar arguments about equipment, even just a few weeks ago. The thing is, equipment in the Pros' hands is pretty overpowering, especially things like the Bubble Shield. The Bubble Shield basically ruins Oddball: set up a Bubble, stay inside as your teammates weaken people who charge, then whack them to finish them off, if they somehow manage to get inside. Hooray! Even more campy than Halo 2! The main argument against equipment is that it's like a mini power-up, but there's no way to tell whether an opponent has it. You can see an overshielded guy coming from far off, (and with Halo 1 respawns) you know if you've given up map control in an area where a key weapon respawned. There is no way of knowing what equipment your opponent is holding, which frustrates a lot of pros.

Bottom line: I find MLG's gametypes much more enjoyable than Bungie's, but I recognize that not everyone will.

So now the top 3 teams will stay the top 3 teams (or 2 teams. FB & Carbon) and everyone else will just suck at MLG because they can't shoot.

I lol'd. How else were you going to measure Halo skill...? You would not have liked Halo 1. And for the record, FB and Carbon don't win because their shots are that much better; they win because they work well as a team. Halo 2 and 3 don't allow for incredible feats of individual skill. They're all about set-ups and team shooting, and those two teams do it the best.

blah blah

You both don't even play the game. I'm sorry, but I feel like both of your opinions should have absolutely no bearing on what gametypes the six of us who aren't in the ASC CoD 4 orgy/clan play when we get together. Have you played ASC Construct, Snowbound, or Epitaph? Only a few times, so I'll help you out with this: they're not fun. They're still campfests. Have you played the MLG maps in question? No. Go play Modern Warfare.

Furthermore, I had to deal with similar arguments from you guys about how to play our Custom Games in Halo 2. "Bungie said do this..." "But what about dual wielding?" What were we playing, almost exclusively, a few months later? Could we be a little bit less shortsighted this time around? Please?

Edited by Mr Vociferous, 20 November 2007 - 11:48 AM.


#14 vociferous

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 11:47 AM

Let's remember to be civil here. I think it's fair that we can all try out the new gametypes MLG is offering. As a group we can decide how we want to approach change to the clan's gametypes, MLG-based or otherwise. Although I don't agree with everything that has been said here on either side, I do feel that if you have an opinion about Halo 3 multiplayer you have to actually play Halo 3 multiplayer. In that same token, MLG's gametypes seem interesting, but they're gametypes for MLG, not necessarily for Ascendant Justice. We have to decide as a group how we want to address our clan customs. I'm game for playing with a few of them tonight.

#15 NJ Shlice

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 12:32 PM

When we were discussing the changes before, I thought I made it clear that it was in MLG's best interest to keep the top teams on top, but you might not have been in the room at the time. They're all under contract for a lot of money... Just so you know, I've made similar arguments about equipment, even just a few weeks ago. The thing is, equipment in the Pros' hands is pretty overpowering, especially things like the Bubble Shield. The Bubble Shield basically ruins Oddball:
set up a Bubble, stay inside as your teammates weaken people who charge, then whack them to finish them off, if they somehow manage to get inside. Hooray! Even more campy than Halo 2! The main argument against equipment is that it's like a mini power-up, but there's no way to tell whether an opponent has it. You can see an overshielded guy coming from far off, (and with Halo 1 respawns) you know if you've given up map control in an area where a key weapon respawned. There is no way of knowing what equipment your opponent is holding, which frustrates a lot of pros.


Good point. However, the Bubble Shield can be disabled during Oddball games. During all other gametypes it should be fine. If the pros just treat the equipment as Power weapons, as they would Sniper and Rockets, (Timers, Map control, etc.) then we wouldn't have a problem of the other team taking advantage of them.

I lol'd. How else were you going to measure Halo skill...? You would not have liked Halo 1. And for the record, FB and Carbon don't win because their shots are that much better; they win because they work well as a team. Halo 2 and 3 don't allow for incredible feats of individual skill. They're all about set-ups and team shooting, and those two teams do it the best.


See my previous post. I know the game isn't all about shooting, and teamwork is almost as important. With teamwork being so important, why remove pieces from the game that make Teamwork more important?

You both don't even play the game. I'm sorry, but I feel like both of your opinions should have absolutely no bearing on what gametypes the six of us who aren't in the ASC CoD 4 orgy/clan play when we get together.


I lol'd more. I've played COD4 for 3 days. Read my posts in the COD4 thread.

In conclusion, I have no problem with Halo 1 weapon timing, removing the hammer, removing spike grenades, Beam rifle instead of Sniper, stronger Overshield, hell i don't even care about the faster speed. I have the biggest problem with Equipment Removal.

Also, I think from a business standpoint it would be more beneficial that the top teams were not locked to the same 3 to 5 teams. Giving more players a chance will ultimately increase the population and not discourage gamers because they can "never make it to the top."

#16 h00ters11

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 12:44 PM

The MLG rules sound money, I'll play with you if I ever get my internet fixed.

Edited by h00ters11, 20 November 2007 - 12:45 PM.

don't tread on me

#17 mattacus

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 12:52 PM

I, also, am down with the MLG alterations.

#18 Blaze

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 01:28 PM

You both don't even play the game. I'm sorry, but I feel like both of your opinions should have absolutely no bearing on what gametypes the six of us who aren't in the ASC CoD 4 orgy/clan play when we get together. Have you played ASC Construct, Snowbound, or Epitaph? Only a few times, so I'll help you out with this: they're not fun. They're still campfests. Have you played the MLG maps in question? No. Go play Modern Warfare.

Hold on a second. So those first two and a half months of playing the game don't count? Holy shit, did I go through a time paradox or something? Because I swear to god I remember at least a couple of those 464 Custom Games I've played. Thanks to my magical friend the internet, he's told me that you've played a whopping 180 customs. That's like... less than 464. But oh yeah, that's right -- the whole time paradox thing fucked it up.

To answer your question, yes, I have played ASC Construct, Snowbound, and Epitaph. In fact, I have played every ASC map, and I must say that they all suck a horrendous amount of dolphin balls, since virtually nothing has been changed to improve/fix the broken gameplay elements on those maps. That's why I used your altered maps as layouts for my altered maps, because you actually attempted to fix the clusterfuckery that is Snowbound. That's why we always play my altered maps when I'm host. I've tried to change weapon spawns, add grav lifts, and block off areas of maps that I think might mix up the gameplay for the better.

Please calm down. I don't know why you're taking my or anyone else's CoD4 playing to heart, but I seriously enjoy it's Multiplayer more than Halo 3's at this point in time. Is it because I've been playing Halo games for five years now and I kinda feel like playing something different and refreshing? Is it because I haven't played CoD4's Multiplayer long enough to hate it yet? I don't know. What I do know, however, is that Halo 3 has a shitty selection of maps. I'm not saying that CoD4's maps are better, (they were all ripped straight from the Campaign. Nice originality Infinity Worthless) but they pale in comparison to Halo 1 and 2's maps, and I don't want to play on them. Even The Pit, arguably the best map in Halo 3, is not a map that I enjoy playing on at all. I have no favorite maps in Halo 3. Most, if not all of them, are classified under "average," in my opinion. I'll come back when the DLC comes out. Standoff looks pretty sweet.

#19 Drew

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 03:11 PM

You both don't even play the game. I'm sorry, but I feel like both of your opinions should have absolutely no bearing on what gametypes the six of us who aren't in the ASC CoD 4 orgy/clan play when we get together. Have you played ASC Construct, Snowbound, or Epitaph? Only a few times, so I'll help you out with this: they're not fun. They're still campfests. Have you played the MLG maps in question? No. Go play Modern Warfare.

lolz, you're right, I have no opinion. I'm sorry for weighing in on something that I, like you, have played for almost three months. And yes, the reason I don't play anymore is because I got sick of it. If that means I no longer have an opinion, fine. Hell, I didn't even disagree with most of it, the thing that I took issue with was the change of player traits and the fact that they want to make power weapons even more powerful. That's it. If such a small disagreement warrants such an extreme response, I'm afraid to even voice about anything anymore.

But whatever, I'll be over in my CoD4 orgy.

Edited by Drew, 20 November 2007 - 03:12 PM.


#20 mattacus

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 02:47 AM

lolz, you're right, I have no opinion. I'm sorry for weighing in on something that I, like you, have played for almost three months. And yes, the reason I don't play anymore is because I got sick of it. If that means I no longer have an opinion, fine. Hell, I didn't even disagree with most of it, the thing that I took issue with was the change of player traits and the fact that they want to make power weapons even more powerful. That's it. If such a small disagreement warrants such an extreme response, I'm afraid to even voice about anything anymore.

But whatever, I'll be over in my CoD4 orgy.


Perhaps an extreme response is not warranted, but can you see where he's coming from: You stop playing a game because it's not fun any more, but you complain when changes are made (for those still playing) to try to make it fun. If you don't think it's fun right now, what possible difference could it make to you if there are changes to the fundamental player traits, etc? It just seems a little short-sighted and pointless for someone who has abandoned the current situation to complain when changes are made to improve the situation (kinda like France bitching when we withdraw troops from iraq).



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