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Call of Duty: Black Ops


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#261 Postmortem

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 08:44 AM

EDIT: Sorry for the double post. Slow internet connection...

Edited by Postmortem, 02 March 2011 - 08:46 AM.

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#262 JCTucker

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 10:03 AM

To anyone who's interested, I just published an article on Black Ops, weighing the pros and cons, trying to decide if it's worthy or not. It's a very extensive read, but if you're interested swing on over and check it out:

http://gamesasartnow...ops-art-or-not/


tl;dr

Besides, you've made your opinion on the game quite clear. We don't need an 8-page treatise on the subject... It's the exact same thing you posted in this thread, only expanded on for 8 pages. Seriously, 8 pages.

I'm sorry, you lost me when you called CCR's Fortunate Son "patriotic music."

You could've just left it at:

Anyways:

Infinity Ward = "War is hell. Our game is fun, but you should still take the time to reflect on what's actually happening."

Treyarch = "Hell yeah! Slaughter every enemy of liberty and fuck their corpses in the name of freedom!"

That's a bit drastic... but yeah, I've just gotten sick of Treyarch's approach. I know which one I prefer when playing a "war" game. If you could even call Black Ops that. If I get my hands on a free copy, I'll probably hang on to it for the Vietnam levels... but otherwise, I'm goin back to Reach.


Seriously, most of this sounds like the ramblings of some pissed off 14-year old girl who's upset that some other guy (Blops) won homecoming king (better sales / Best Shooter / Multiplayer) instead of her boyfriend (Reach).

You position this as a discussion on the bad and good, but you don't even mention the good until 80% of the way through:

I guess at this point I?m just tying up loose ends, trying to make as many points against Black Ops as I can, but in truth, enough is enough. Black Ops is ? in spite of its flaws ? an extremely amazing game, rich in many aspects which place it far ahead of other games on the market.


Come on, that's at the end of Page 6. You literally spend 5 pages tearing this game apart. One page for the intro, one for the conclusion. And on Page 7, you go over the "good" things.

If, truly, this article changed from your "original intent" (as stated on page 1), you should have scrapped the whole thing and approached it from a new perspective.

From reading the heavy-handed assessments and downright petty problems like the hurried audio, I assume the original intent is something along the lines of "I think this game is trash, and you're an ignorant moron if you think otherwise." Basically, an expanded opinion of this:

Wow. Seriously?

I have nothing good to say about this game. Everything that's good in this game was stolen from Infinity Ward.

This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me lose faith in both gamers and the gaming industry. Gamers for being so shallow and ignorant to the fact that this is just a sloppy and hastily made game, capitalizing on the success of what was once a good series, to make them shell out their money, and specific companies in the game industry for proving that they're only in it for the money, and don't really care about quality games.

I hope more people come to their senses.


Dude, the game sold 12 million units. Coco made this prediction at release:

Best selling in the sense that it made the most money in the first twenty-four hours. This basically happens once a year to one title: Halo 2, Halo 3, GTA, MW2 all broke this record. Black Ops won't even break the top twenty when it comes to "best-selling" (making the most money or selling the most copies).


12 Million Units! I can't even fathom how much $$$ that made. Apparently, Treyarch is doing something right.

We've been saying this since we started playing: Blops' multiplayer is the multiplayer that MW2 should've been. It's free of exploits, and has been for the most part. The biggest complaint is due to when the game's host "dashboards." Seriously, that's it.

No one's saying that the multiplayer formula isn't getting stale, and it's obvious to anyone that Activision is going to Guitar Hero-ize CoD. I don't need 8 pages to tell me that...

But, back to my point with this section... You say "weighing the pros and cons." No, you didn't. It's extremely unbalanced and grossly unfair. When you realized that the tone of the article truly changed, or the actual facts didn't support your opinion, it should've been scrapped and redone with an actual pros/cons comparison. Instead, we have 5 of 6 content pages on cons only. That's not "weighing." That's a hit piece.

OK, that's it. I'm done.

#263 Drew

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 10:21 AM

Tucker, you must have the most uneventful job of all time.

#264 Niterider

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 10:38 AM

12 Million Units! I can't even fathom how much $$$ that made. Apparently, Treyarch is doing something right.

It's been proven quality doesn't sell games, marketing does.

We've been saying this since we started playing: Blops' multiplayer is the multiplayer that MW2 should've been. It's free of exploits, and has been for the most part. The biggest complaint is due to when the game's host "dashboards." Seriously, that's it.

No one's saying that the multiplayer formula isn't getting stale, and it's obvious to anyone that Activision is going to Guitar Hero-ize CoD.

Truth. Although I've never understood the complaints about the SP story, with the spoiler exception below. Sure, it isn't Citizen Kane, but it ain't Star Trek 5 either. And in the gaming industry, you have to set your standard lower than other media.

Spoiler

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#265 Postmortem

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 10:53 AM

12 Million Units! I can't even fathom how much $$$ that made. Apparently, Treyarch is doing something right.


If twelve million people suddenly decide to shoot up heroine, that doesn't mean it's the right decision. Numbers don't mean anything in this sense. Logic and common sense dictates that.

In response to everything else... Ouch.
Unfortunately however, your response is fair. By the end of the article writing process, I was far too eager to just get it finished that I took out too much of the positives and just summarized. In truth, if I chose that route, I should have also summarized for the negative aspects of the game as well. But I didn't. I tried to pack the overall point of the article into the last page. I think the last paragraph is a perfect summary of what I wanted from this article, but if I failed at that then it's my bad. Either way, it is only an opinion piece. If I need to rewrite the opening page to be a little more accurate to what the final article was like, then I will. Keep in mind that the article wasn't written with the AJ forums in mind. As you stated, I already made my opinion clear here. The article wasn't written for you guys, I was just posting to share in case there was any interest.

I've felt very passionate about Black Ops and the negative effect it's having on gaming, and only recently realized the positives. I wanted to share all of those thoughts in an article which anyone could read.
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#266 JCTucker

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 11:56 AM

If twelve million people suddenly decide to shoot up heroine, that doesn't mean it's the right decision. Numbers don't mean anything in this sense. Logic and common sense dictates that.


Post, you're a smarter person than to make the "if all your friends jump off a bridge" argument... The fact that you were able to write a huge article on something you didn't enjoy proves that.

In response to everything else... Ouch.
Unfortunately however, your response is fair. By the end of the article writing process, I was far too eager to just get it finished that I took out too much of the positives and just summarized. In truth, if I chose that route, I should have also summarized for the negative aspects of the game as well. But I didn't. I tried to pack the overall point of the article into the last page. I think the last paragraph is a perfect summary of what I wanted from this article, but if I failed at that then it's my bad. Either way, it is only an opinion piece. If I need to rewrite the opening page to be a little more accurate to what the final article was like, then I will. Keep in mind that the article wasn't written with the AJ forums in mind. As you stated, I already made my opinion clear here. The article wasn't written for you guys, I was just posting to share in case there was any interest.

I've felt very passionate about Black Ops and the negative effect it's having on gaming, and only recently realized the positives. I wanted to share all of those thoughts in an article which anyone could read.


And, yes, I did read it. I wrote the tl;dr, then the crack about "patriotic music," (aside: All of the "protest" music is very unpatriotic - in the traditional, flag-waving, "God and Country" sense of the word) but then I got to page three without any mention of any positives of Blops. I put on "serious face" after the school dance comparison. Frankly, at that point I realized you put a lot of energy and effort into writing that, so it deserves more than zingers and one-liners. You're the writer, so you should stand behind your opinion as written. I was really hoping you wouldn't get upset, so that's good to see.

As to the statement: "the negative effect it's having on gaming..." I think it's far too early to judge the impact of a 4-month old game on the industry. I mean, Blops' influence (if a yearly franchise can have that) won't be seen in any other game for at least 18 months. And, even then, I seriously doubt you can tie anything back to Blops, or any game for that matter. The violence? The over-the-top gore? Those have been a staple in games for 10 years. It's not like Blops came out, and People Can Fly made Bulletstorm (the most grotesque, pandering FPS I've ever witnessed) gorier. I mean, they're thisclose to some sort of kill called "Buttf***ed" in that game.

The real danger posed by Blops is Activision turning the whole CoD into the next Guitar Hero. They destroyed that franchise, and they will do the same with CoD. I will not be playing it if they try to go to a Pay for Play model, when we're already paying for Live. Most of the weaknesses with Blops ( a movie-of-the-week plotline, scripted events, unbelievable scenarios) can be chalked up to it being rushed out the door. It's only going to get worse, I fear. That's the real impact, as I see it. Not virtually shoving broken glass in a dude's mouth.

Anyway, looking forward to the next article.

#267 JCTucker

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 12:11 PM

Tucker, you must have the most uneventful job of all time.


Nah. not really... Had some background stuff processing. Queries and whatnot that took 4 to 5 minutes to execute. Our email marketer really needs to optimize their stuff.

Just light on tasks atm.

I took a break from working on an Android app... I've been going back and forth.

So, maybe yeah.

#268 Postmortem

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 01:00 PM

Post, you're a smarter person than to make the "if all your friends jump off a bridge" argument... The fact that you were able to write a huge article on something you didn't enjoy proves that.


If you're smart enough to point that out, shouldn't you also be smart enough to avoid the "lots of people liked it, so it must be good" comment in the first place? :P

Nah but, all that aside, I respect your opinion.

I'm gonna change that little comment about patriotic music. I guess I was under the impression that since the song was first written and released, its meaning has changed. I've been at plenty of 4th of July celebrations and heard that song playing. :P I guess that was an inaccurate assumption on my part (and on the part of the festival coordinators).
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#269 JCTucker

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 01:26 PM

If you're smart enough to point that out, shouldn't you also be smart enough to avoid the "lots of people liked it, so it must be good" comment in the first place? :P


2shay.


On the music, a LOT of music during the Vietnam era was made to protest the Vietnam War. Just off hand (I'm not going to go bother looking up the lyrics), here's a sample of 'Fortunate Son:'

------------------------
Some folks were born
made to wave the flag.
Ooh, they're red, white, and blue.
And when the band plays "Hail to the Chief"
They're pointing the cannon at you.

Some folks are born with Star-Spangled Eyes
Oh, they send you down to war, Lord.
And when you ask them, "How much should we give?"
The only answer is "More, more, more."

The chorus is, of course, "It ain't me, It ain't me, I ain't no Fortunate Son."
------------------------

Also, from Wikipedia:

The song was inspired by David Eisenhower, the grandson of President Dwight David Eisenhower who married Julie Nixon, the daughter of President Richard Nixon in 1968.[3] John Fogerty told Rolling Stone: "Julie Nixon was hanging around with David Eisenhower, and you just had the feeling that none of these people were going to be involved with the war. In 1969, the majority of the country thought morale was great among the troops, and like eighty percent of them were in favor of the war. But to some of us who were watching closely, we just knew we were headed for trouble." [4]

This song was popular during the Vietnam War and is included in several Vietnam films and video games. The song symbolizes the thoughts of a man who is being drafted. This spoke out against the war in Vietnam. It is sung from the perspective of one of these men (who is not the son of a Senator, millionaire, or military leader, thus not a "fortunate son"), who ends up fighting in the Vietnam War.

Fogerty performed the song in front of President Bill Clinton, and was broadcast on US TV, on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial during the "America's Millennium" show on December 31, 1999.

Rolling Stone ranked the song #99 on their list of the "500 Greatest Songs of All Time."

On Fogerty's 2007 album Revival, the song "I Can't Take It No More", which speaks out against the Iraq War, implicitly links the Iraq and Vietnam wars by referring to George W. Bush as a fortunate son.

------------------------

Same for "Gimme Shelter," any song by Joan Baez, Bob Dylan ("All Along the Watchtower" being a personal fave). Any song played in Full Metal Jacket, Platoon, Forrest Gump...

I wouldn't term them "unpatriotic," but they're definitely don't inspire a sense of Nationalism.

#270 JCTucker

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 01:28 PM

And, before Nightshade or Blaze make any "old guy" jokes about me remembering these songs on my radio... I'm 33.

#271 Cocopjojo

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 02:31 PM

Dude, the game sold 12 million units. Coco made this prediction at release:

Best selling in the sense that it made the most money in the first twenty-four hours. This basically happens once a year to one title: Halo 2, Halo 3, GTA, MW2 all broke this record. Black Ops won't even break the top twenty when it comes to "best-selling" (making the most money or selling the most copies).

12 Million Units! I can't even fathom how much $$$ that made. Apparently, Treyarch is doing something right.

I'm not sure if you were saying I was wrong or right, but... Ivan called it the "best selling game of all time" and I said it was only in the sense that it made the most money in the first 24 hours, but not in the sense that it has sold the most copies or made the most money overall. Here are a handful of games that have sold more:

New Super Mario Bros. (26.21 million)
Nintendogs All versions (23.26 million)
Mario Kart DS (20.70 million)
Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day! (18.72 million)
Pok?mon Diamond and Pearl (17.39 million)
Brain Age 2: More Training in Minutes a Day! (13.71 million)
Wii Sports (75.66 million)
Wii Play (27.38 million)
Mario Kart Wii (26.50 million)
Wii Sports Resort (26.35 million)
Wii Fit (22.61 million)
New Super Mario Bros. Wii (21.28 million)
Wii Fit Plus (17.74 million)
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas (17.33 million)
Gran Turismo 3: A-Spec (14.89 million)
The Sims (16 million shipped)
Super Mario World (20 million)
Super Mario Bros. (40.23 million)
Super Mario Bros. 3 (18 million)
Tetris (35 million)
Pok?mon Red, Blue, and Green (20.68 million)
Pok?mon Gold and Silver (15.2 million)
Super Mario Land (14 million)

I'm not denying the juggernaut that is the CoD series right now, I was just taking issue with Ivan calling it the "best selling game of all time" when it isn't. It made the most money in the first 24 hours, but as I said in my post, at least one video game breaks that record that every year.

#272 Drew

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 07:38 PM

And, before Nightshade or Blaze make any "old guy" jokes about me remembering these songs on my radio... I'm 33.

33? Damn dude, that's fucking ancient.

#273 deftech

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 11:05 PM

I like having Tucker around. He makes me feel young.

#274 JCTucker

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 06:54 AM

I like having Tucker around. He makes me feel young.


I cried when I found out Ronald Reagan was no longer going to be President. He protected us from the Russians. Personally. That was in 1986, and I was probably 8, given I have a September birthday.

I was watching the TV when the Challenger blew up. My mom is a teacher, so that teacher on the shuttle was a big deal.

My first gaming system was an Atari 800. They made a Joust port, and I was in heaven. Also, my dad did contract work chasing money, and was gone throughout through the time I was 6 years old. His way of saying hello was coming back with a shiny new videogame every week.

Then there was the humongous videogame crash of 1984 that I was completely oblivious to. I had a huge cache of dad-guilt video games to play by that time. A neighbor had a 2600 and the ET game. I thought that was the most complicated thing ever. Turns out it was just broken.

In an effort to break me of my videogame obsession, my parents said I had to buy anything VG related on my own when my best friend got an NES. He told me about this really cool game he got called "Metroid." I stayed over at his house one night, and played that game all night long.

I saved up spare change for about 8 months to procure an NES with SMB/Duck Hunt combo cart (no ROB), then spent another three months scrounging up enough coin and saving what I could of my $4 per week allowance to buy Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!! 3 months later. The next game I got was a gold-cart Zelda, only because it was the only other game Wal-Mart had besides Punch-Out!!!.

The next step from my parents was that they would only buy me 1 game for Christmas and 1 for my birthday. I spent my time looking for "epic" games, games I could play and replay for a long time. Dragon Warrior, Faxanadu, Wizards & Warriors, Mickey Mousecapade, Ducktales. Then, of course, Final Fantasy...

All this to say... Respect your elders, youngun!

#275 JCTucker

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 07:14 AM

I'm not sure if you were saying I was wrong or right, but... Ivan called it the "best selling game of all time" and I said it was only in the sense that it made the most money in the first 24 hours, but not in the sense that it has sold the most copies or made the most money overall. Here are a handful of games that have sold more:


I'm not denying the juggernaut that is the CoD series right now, I was just taking issue with Ivan calling it the "best selling game of all time" when it isn't. It made the most money in the first 24 hours, but as I said in my post, at least one video game breaks that record that every year.


Cocop, sorry, my senility was creeping on me. I thought you were meaning that it wouldn't break the top 20... for the year. Which is beyond a ridiculous interpretation of what you typed on my part. Ivan said "of all time," then you said "every year" and then concluded with "it won't break the top 20." I R stoopid.

#276 Vanwadilion

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 08:14 AM

12 Million Units! I can't even fathom how much $$$ that made. Apparently, Treyarch is doing something right.

I'm not sure if you were saying I was wrong or right, but... Ivan called it the "best selling game of all time" and I said it was only in the sense that it made the most money in the first 24 hours, but not in the sense that it has sold the most copies or made the most money overall. Here are a handful of games that have sold more:

QUOTE
New Super Mario Bros. (26.21 million)
Nintendogs All versions (23.26 million)
Mario Kart DS (20.70 million)
Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day! (18.72 million)
Pok?mon Diamond and Pearl (17.39 million)
Brain Age 2: More Training in Minutes a Day! (13.71 million)
Wii Sports (75.66 million)
Wii Play (27.38 million)
Mario Kart Wii (26.50 million)
Wii Sports Resort (26.35 million)
Wii Fit (22.61 million)
New Super Mario Bros. Wii (21.28 million)
Wii Fit Plus (17.74 million)
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas (17.33 million)
Gran Turismo 3: A-Spec (14.89 million)
The Sims (16 million shipped)
Super Mario World (20 million)
Super Mario Bros. (40.23 million)
Super Mario Bros. 3 (18 million)
Tetris (35 million)
Pok?mon Red, Blue, and Green (20.68 million)
Pok?mon Gold and Silver (15.2 million)
Super Mario Land (14 million)

I'm not denying the juggernaut that is the CoD series right now, I was just taking issue with Ivan calling it the "best selling game of all time" when it isn't. It made the most money in the first 24 hours, but as I said in my post, at least one video game breaks that record that every year.


Although, by the end of this year, Black Ops will have moved onto that list as far as units sold (if you count both 360 and PS3 sales), and has already bested some on that list as far as sales dollars even adjusting for inflation. Many of the games on the list didn't sell for $60 and Black Ops probably sold many special edition copies as well, not to mention DLC.

Edited by Vanwadilion, 03 March 2011 - 08:15 AM.


#277 Niterider

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 08:29 AM

Some of the games on that list are also packaged games, like SMB 1 and Wii Sports. Do the Black Ops sales reflect Steam and other DD downloads?
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#278 Cocopjojo

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 09:52 AM

Cocop, sorry, my senility was creeping on me. I thought you were meaning that it wouldn't break the top 20... for the year. Which is beyond a ridiculous interpretation of what you typed on my part. Ivan said "of all time," then you said "every year" and then concluded with "it won't break the top 20." I R stoopid.

No worries, I see now that I wasn't completely clear.

Although, by the end of this year, Black Ops will have moved onto that list as far as units sold (if you count both 360 and PS3 sales), and has already bested some on that list as far as sales dollars even adjusting for inflation. Many of the games on the list didn't sell for $60 and Black Ops probably sold many special edition copies as well, not to mention DLC.

Yeah, you're right, a lot of the games on that list are Wii and DS games which, like you said, aren't $60 and didn't have special editions that cost even more. It'd be interesting to get raw numbers on revenue generated. They may be floating around somewhere.

#279 deftech

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 08:38 PM

Long nostalgia post.



No ROB? Pssssssssssh peasant.

#280 Nightshade

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 04:43 PM

Patriotic Music

That aside, to elaborate on what Tucker et. all have said. You must be very green to assume that in todays world, most sales doesn't translate to best game. Because it does. Gaming is a business, and its a business even before an art form. When it comes to putting food on your families table versus nobility, the right decision is the obvious one. You can however debate whether or not thats the way it should be, but to ignore the fact the dollar beats best interest is naive at best.

I also know you say this wasn't meant for our eyes, and it was just an opinion piece; but that doesn't allow free reign for bias. I really have a hard time reading anything with even a medium level of bias, and I am more tolerant than others. If you want your writing to be taken seriously, you need to convince people of your point. Not just say the equivalent of "this sucks at first, but I guess it can be okay."

These are just my two cents.


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